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Four days strike action in Aug and Sept. We should really get behind them on this issue. They are an integral part of all our lives and, I feel, somewhat taken for granted. Give them a good pay rise to show how much we appreciate them.
I currently work for the NHS. I will never go on strike.
Do I support NHS workers going on strike? No. Perhaps I can make an exception for some Band 1/2, and at a stretch, possibly band 3 staff - those are the people who are truly working crazy hours and not getting much reward for it - but not all NHS staff. No way.
Frankly, anyone in Band 4 and above has no good reason to be on strike, in my opinion. I will have far more senior people than me in my NHS organisation who disagree with me and who will likely go on strike. Do I care about what they think? No. Will I join or support them? Definitely not.
I was band 3 15 years ago and it couldn't pay for shit. If you actually are in the NHS you would know that bands 2/1 are rare and absolutely shit. Band 3 is akin to a prison sentence and band 4 is scraping a living wage considering the hours you will work.
The strikes would be covered by temporary staff, most likely supplied by an agency, which would just mean we're flushing yet more public money down the drain. FWIW Band 1/2s make up less than 10% of all staff. The majority of NHS staff are band 5.
So, this would mean that even though you would maybe and just maybe make an exception for some of them they couldn't win anyway as the temp agency staff would replace them?
I agree that what would happen and plenty of Unions probably know this from bitter experience, some give in and are uselessly led, others realise they need to band together, merge (hence the term Union) and then strike collectively to support their fellow co-workers, otherwise, they will be picked off and as you have pointed out can never win. Especially as the bosses will know this too and some of them as we can see is really trying it on and again and again.
So, if 100K NHS staff strike, then I doubt there will be enough temps at ALL levels to cover them. I agree temps is bad as it forces Unions to do it all collectively and have an ALL OUT strike mentality, but that's right-wing politics for you, forcing the issue all the time every time as its more important to break the Unions everywhere (so they can pay less in the private sector or pay a bit more and steal the best from the public sector for peanuts) than it is to pay people MORE than inflation so we make the need for Unions to go away for good.
Yes, you make good points about striker breaking .... which will force more ALL-out strikes. You may want to avoid that result, but the more the pressure is applied the more inflation and loss of real wage earnings will people be forced to take action. I read that Wildcat strikes are on the up as well now, that's the worst for productivity, along with work to rule.
I do wonder what band jnr doctors are in, as I suspect we shall need them to one day become snr doctors or as I call them doctors. And how do we replace them even with temps? As we have seen truck drivers, cleaners and so on, are all really key to this great country. The magic money trees exist, we have seen forests of them, just ask the DUP for a spare £1bn. The money is there, it is about sensible RoI and investing in sustainable profit-making state-owned and state-run British assets so, we can save while the sun shines and not waste it on rail, bank, or energy company bailouts as the taxpayer pays hard for taking on the debt of the risk and the rich walk away loaded.
It seems the right-wing wants selective socialism (bailouts) for the rich and capitalism (wage deflation) for the rest of us.
So, this would mean that even though you would maybe and just maybe make an exception for some of them they couldn't win anyway as the temp agency staff would replace them?
I agree that what would happen and plenty of Unions probably know this from bitter experience, some give in and are uselessly led, others realise they need to band together, merge (hence the term Union) and then strike collectively to support their fellow co-workers, otherwise, they will be picked off and as you have pointed out can never win. Especially as the bosses will know this too and some of them as we can see is really trying it on and again and again.
So, if 100K NHS staff strike, then I doubt there will be enough temps at ALL levels to cover them. I agree temps is bad as it forces Unions to do it all collectively and have an ALL OUT strike mentality, but that's right-wing politics for you, forcing the issue all the time every time as its more important to break the Unions everywhere (so they can pay less in the private sector or pay a bit more and steal the best from the public sector for peanuts) than it is to pay people MORE than inflation so we make the need for Unions to go away for good.
Yes, you make good points about striker breaking .... which will force more ALL-out strikes. You may want to avoid that result, but the more the pressure is applied the more inflation and loss of real wage earnings will people be forced to take action. I read that Wildcat strikes are on the up as well now, that's the worst for productivity, along with work to rule.
I do wonder what band jnr doctors are in, as I suspect we shall need them to one day become snr doctors or as I call them doctors. And how do we replace them even with temps? As we have seen truck drivers, cleaners and so on, are all really key to this great country. The magic money trees exist, we have seen forests of them, just ask the DUP for a spare £1bn. The money is there, it is about sensible RoI and investing in sustainable profit-making state-owned and state-run British assets so, we can save while the sun shines and not waste it on rail, bank, or energy company bailouts as the taxpayer pays hard for taking on the debt of the risk and the rich walk away loaded.
It seems the right-wing wants selective socialism (bailouts) for the rich and capitalism (wage deflation) for the rest of us.
I back any public service worker, no matter what the sector.
Regarding Posties, if you have ever dealt with Hermes you would break the bank to renationalise the postal service.
No such company anymore but if you are thinking of Evri then you may be correct. A bit like Avanti replacing Virgin Trains if you change your name maybe no one notices just how poor a service you provide
Haven’t read the entire thread so apologies if the point has already been made, but time waits for no man. I’m sure in the 1950’s Woolworths ceasing to exist on the High Street would have been unthinkable. 100 years ago I’m sure Farriers up and down the country would have been bemoaning the advent of the automobile. Harsh reality, adapt or die (metaphorically, before anyone jumps on that). There will be casualties but there will also be opportunities, although I appreciate different demographics are, in the main, likely to fall within each.
Looking after the elderly on the other hand is non-British work for non-British people, according to you. Let's import some cheap Lithuanians to do that bit.
Ha ha, love your work Sheffield, even if I don't agree all the time, and certainly not here!
Your posts kind of encapsulate John Mill's arguments for free speech, including the concept of hearing the counter argument to show you why the initial line of reasoning was right.
And, at times, to remind of us of truths when current beliefs become dogma.
Sheffield, Baz etc, keep up the good work.
Edit, later in the thread Sheffield suggests he could be me. It's possible, I had my passport stolen in the 80's, and I've always wondered if there's another me, if he made a better fist of it from me, or even if I'm actually me. Down the wormhole I go.
Maybe if people were still digging coal out of the ground in Barnsley and Wakefield we wouldn't be in this mess with the energy companies holding us to ransom
It’s crucial that TU’s and Employers start their relationship on a sound footing. TU’s need to negotiate a robust bargaining agreement as everything hinges on that. At the same time I recognise employers hesitation to work with TU’s. Unfortunately there are many incompetent, hardline reps that do more damage than good.
Another big issue is that ‘consultation’ has become a lose term that’s often interchangeable with ‘negotiation’. The two are very different and an employer more often than not is consulting which doesn’t mean the end result will go the employees way. That’s just how it is unfortunately.
My view is that there needs to be a fundamental change in the relationship between employers and employees. The gains made by TU’s don’t resolve the fundamental issues and employers continue to see workers as dispensable commodities.
One such solution could be to have fewer TU’s and have say, 2 or 3 large ones that can harmonises how TU’s work with employers. I can’t see the justification for the number of unions we have in relation to membership.
For some, it seems temp staff are always just as good or better than the original staff (somehow).
But if you ask the patients (customers in capitalism) they then say they prefer the original staff and not the replacements. And often demand their return.
In fact, almost every national UK citizen poll ever done on nearly every privatisation has the majority well against it and having it remain in state control and state-owned.
There was even a poll once where over 50% of Tory voters wanted the Railways renationalised. So, not a loony leftie libtard woke thing afterall.
For some, it seems temp staff are always just as good or better than the original staff (somehow).
But if you ask the patients (customers in capitalism) they then say they prefer the original staff and not the replacements. And often demand their return.
In fact, almost every national UK citizen poll ever done on nearly every privatisation has the majority well against it and having it remain in state control and state-owned.
There was even a poll once where over 50% of Tory voters wanted the Railways renationalised. So, not a loony leftie libtard woke thing afterall.
It will probably come to pass that infrastructure, energy, water, rail etc. will be come back into public ownership. It all depends on the powers that be developing a model that is palatable and compensates the private sector and re-badges public ownership to overcome fears of the state controlling everything. If you look closely at the rail industry the franchising model has been ditched, new Great British Railways about to be set up with track and train joined up and service contracts for operating trains on the various lines.
It will probably come to pass that infrastructure, energy, water, rail etc. will be come back into public ownership. It all depends on the powers that be developing a model that is palatable and compensates the private sector and re-badges public ownership to overcome fears of the state controlling everything. If you look closely at the rail industry the franchising model has been ditched, new Great British Railways about to be set up with track and train joined up and service contracts for operating trains on the various lines.
[Post edited 13 Aug 2022 13:40]
Well, they were losing voters so, their hand was forced.
But you notice that no corp capitalists come out (Leading Tories, New Labour Blairites, right-wing SNP and ALL Liberals) and say it should be fully nationalised. What people forget is that our railways were originally privately built, but it was such a shambles during WW2, with different sized tracks for different sized trains, zero co-ordination (despite everyone saying that the private sector manages better than the public sector), that the govt had to take control of it during the war and afterwards a Real Labour govt nationalised it for the first and so far, only time.
Then came the decades of propaganda saying BR was rubbish, full of Union trouble makers (even though it's private now and we still get strikes) and never on time to its own published schedules (which at least they published in advance of the schedule actually running).
Let's say all that's true, which it isn't, but let's just say. In the past, some lines and stations were closed down, but very few, now the lines are closed down in a selective ad-hoc way when trains don't run which is way more often than before.
If a line is closed down you can campaign and shout and vote to get it back open and can manage your life around this perm change.
But if it's intermittently closed, then all you can do is John Majors passenger charter which as we know is useless. In the meantime, your boss fires you for not getting to work regularly. You could of course move close to work where house prices are so high that all you can afford is the worst accommodation even though you are a solid worker and all you ask is a decent roof over your head. Let's say you do that, well then the train companies can close down some lines officially as people have now moved to the cities, bring in replacement coach services (which they also own as well) and charge you more for that.
It's all very easy to do, just run down a service, privatise it, small uplift over a couple of years to claim victory and then charge more as you cut the hell out of it. Then demonise workers who complain in any way as money grabbers. The CEO of these companies are not just paid to make profits, they are also paid to ensure privatisation is carried out for the next one. There is no conspiracy, there is no need to conspire, they are in power they just do it. The reason they will is from their point of view this is a stellar business model. And for them, it works just great, as the billions their Bank account attests to.
Well, they were losing voters so, their hand was forced.
But you notice that no corp capitalists come out (Leading Tories, New Labour Blairites, right-wing SNP and ALL Liberals) and say it should be fully nationalised. What people forget is that our railways were originally privately built, but it was such a shambles during WW2, with different sized tracks for different sized trains, zero co-ordination (despite everyone saying that the private sector manages better than the public sector), that the govt had to take control of it during the war and afterwards a Real Labour govt nationalised it for the first and so far, only time.
Then came the decades of propaganda saying BR was rubbish, full of Union trouble makers (even though it's private now and we still get strikes) and never on time to its own published schedules (which at least they published in advance of the schedule actually running).
Let's say all that's true, which it isn't, but let's just say. In the past, some lines and stations were closed down, but very few, now the lines are closed down in a selective ad-hoc way when trains don't run which is way more often than before.
If a line is closed down you can campaign and shout and vote to get it back open and can manage your life around this perm change.
But if it's intermittently closed, then all you can do is John Majors passenger charter which as we know is useless. In the meantime, your boss fires you for not getting to work regularly. You could of course move close to work where house prices are so high that all you can afford is the worst accommodation even though you are a solid worker and all you ask is a decent roof over your head. Let's say you do that, well then the train companies can close down some lines officially as people have now moved to the cities, bring in replacement coach services (which they also own as well) and charge you more for that.
It's all very easy to do, just run down a service, privatise it, small uplift over a couple of years to claim victory and then charge more as you cut the hell out of it. Then demonise workers who complain in any way as money grabbers. The CEO of these companies are not just paid to make profits, they are also paid to ensure privatisation is carried out for the next one. There is no conspiracy, there is no need to conspire, they are in power they just do it. The reason they will is from their point of view this is a stellar business model. And for them, it works just great, as the billions their Bank account attests to.
I watched a really good interview on YouTube during the week with Mick Lynch and Eddie Dempsey of the RMT. I won’t post a link to it here but it’s called “Down the pub with Mick Lynch and Eddie Dempsey”. About all the corruption in the system and the public money involved. I recommend it to everyone no matter what your persuasion is 🙈
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