| General Election Thread 17:46 - May 22 with 88251 views | loftboy |
This will be the first election that I have no idea who to vote for, will never vote Tory again after the lies during covid where my dad lost his life, don’t trust starmer, would never vote for a bunch of racists like reform , anyone give me a clue?
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| General Election Thread on 09:28 - Jun 14 with 1769 views | FDC |
| General Election Thread on 09:23 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
‘I don’t know what the answer is’
I do.
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| General Election Thread on 09:33 - Jun 14 with 1760 views | Paddyhoops |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 by Northernr |
Doesn't the issue become more acute the lower down you go though?
I agree with you and Steve, kids should be sold apprenticeships and learning a trade like yours as opposed to going to the University of Stoke for David Beckham studies. You can earn good money doing some of that stuff - plastering, plumbing, leccy... it's skilled, it's always in demand, be your own boss etc. I know a lot of people exactly like you said working in bars into their 20s and 30s nursing a pointless degree and associated debt.
But where I'm from a lot of the so-called menial jobs were incredibly grim. It's 8 hours in a field picking spuds, or on a line gutting fish, or lugging stuff around the steel works.
That's a hard sell to any kid or parent. It's fair enough for people to aspire to better than that for their kids. This is why it makes me laugh when people say we should only allow immigration to the highly skilled, best and brightest etc. What, so they can do the cool jobs and the British kids can get on with all the fruit picking?
If you paid the money to attract them into that work then suddenly a bag of potatoes would cost £10+ and people would have a duck fit. Well, they wouldn't, we'd just buy the foreign ones cheaper and that'd be the end of British farming.
It's very complicated this, with no simple or quick solutions, but it suits certain politicians and media outlets to pretend the opposite. |
I’m listening to the Nicky Campbell interview with Farage as we speak. The same issue of fruit pickers and care workers has come up.
He says we don’t need them .
He didn’t offer any solutions as to how we replace them sadly . He never does.
When questioned about his reform colleague, Ben Habib who commented that asylum seekers shoud be left in the sea if their dinghy overturns in the channel.
Mr Habib is a man of Pakistani heritage which makes his views even more baffling.
Farage refused to condemn his comments.
I just turned off in disgust at that point.
Where’s the humanity. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:41 - Jun 14 with 1705 views | Clive_Anderson |
| General Election Thread on 09:33 - Jun 14 by Paddyhoops |
I’m listening to the Nicky Campbell interview with Farage as we speak. The same issue of fruit pickers and care workers has come up.
He says we don’t need them .
He didn’t offer any solutions as to how we replace them sadly . He never does.
When questioned about his reform colleague, Ben Habib who commented that asylum seekers shoud be left in the sea if their dinghy overturns in the channel.
Mr Habib is a man of Pakistani heritage which makes his views even more baffling.
Farage refused to condemn his comments.
I just turned off in disgust at that point.
Where’s the humanity. |
We could follow what Japan are doing with using technology and smart farming to replace human labour as their population ages.
https://www.asiapathways-adbi.org/2023/01/japan-guides-the-way-on-smart-farming-
Here the opposite seems to be happening, car washes used to be automated when I was a kid and now they seem to be manned by about 15 foreign blokes instead. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:41 - Jun 14 with 1714 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 09:26 - Jun 14 by Clive_Anderson |
What you're describing sounds a bit like Switzerland, everything there is extortionately expensive in comparison to here. I know someone who tried to get a cleaner and the cheapest was over £60 an hour so they decided not to bother. When I went there over a decade ago a small bag of potatoes from the supermarket cost £6 .
And yet despite that their quality of life is much better. They don't have a large proportion of the country working long hours to spend all their money living in a room in a crappy HMO. |
Sounds great. Long fcking road to get to there though, and absolutely not simple or plain sailing along the way. You can’t just suddenly turn around and say it’s £60 an hour to clean your pub, or £15 for a bag of potatoes, there’d be riots.things like hospitality would largely collapse.
It’s like this current campaign where everybody is pretending they’re going to repair crumbling public services while not raising taxes. Good luck with that. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 09:45 - Jun 14 with 1699 views | Stainrod |
| General Election Thread on 20:30 - Jun 13 by hubble |
I just want to point out the unsavoury and unwarranted accusation in your post:
"Force people (white people I'm guessing would be your preference) to breed more?"
I think SheffieldHoop has been fairly scrupulous in replying to all the different posters who have (apparently) taken umbrage with his point of view, but nothing that he has said warrants your (IMO) snide accusation.
What I find interesting is that the most hostile and ad hominem posts in this thread have come from those who position themselves on the 'liberal left', who are, supposedly, the inclusive and 'progressive' class.
No one has a monopoly on what is 'right' or 'wrong', no one's opinions are more valid than anyone else's and all morals are subjective.
(edit - spelling mistake) [Post edited 13 Jun 20:39]
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I thought it was a fair reading of Sheffield's views considering how vehement he was about what he considers the damage to this country caused by immigration, including sexual assaults by certain ethnic groups which I believe were mentioned (I thought by him but apologies if not). Anyway, if I have misrepresented Sheffield's views then naturally I apologise. No hard feelings I hope. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 10:12 - Jun 14 with 1601 views | colinallcars |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 by loftboy |
“ The increasing number of people over retirement age need pensions, health care etc. In the UK this requires funding from the tax base funded by working people. If the tax base is dwindling (which it certainly would be without immigration) while the retirement age population grows, who funds these things? And how?”
Here we go shades of Russian Bot here, can I remind you that my generation unless academically gifted left school at 16, started work immediately, my first tax code gave me a tax free allowance of £1275 compared with £12500 today, we paid over 20 P in the pound tax, once married the only help available was child benefit, there was no tax credits, or universal credit to back up your wages, you wanted more money you did more overtime.
As I’ve said previously by the time I get my state pension ( which is one of the lowest in Europe) I’d have worked for 51 years. I think I’ve contributed to my pension, don’t you? |
An even more striking example - my eldest brother left school at 14 ! Went straight into work on crap wages and conditions ( no sick pay or company pensions then ), did national service then returned to work. Never drew a benefit in his life and yet didn't make it to 65.
I'm glad Russianbot is no longer here but worry about inter-generational trouble-stirring. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 10:13 - Jun 14 with 1582 views | Clive_Anderson |
| General Election Thread on 09:41 - Jun 14 by Northernr |
Sounds great. Long fcking road to get to there though, and absolutely not simple or plain sailing along the way. You can’t just suddenly turn around and say it’s £60 an hour to clean your pub, or £15 for a bag of potatoes, there’d be riots.things like hospitality would largely collapse.
It’s like this current campaign where everybody is pretending they’re going to repair crumbling public services while not raising taxes. Good luck with that. |
I don't think reducing immigration would cause wages to suddenly rise to £60 an hour, would be a slow increase in wages over time and a slow increase in prices to match. Hopefully as wages increase more people will want to work and things will even out.
Any direction from here is going to be difficult, I don't think that continuing to increase the population of the country by 750k+ a year (over double the population of Nottingham) is sustainable. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 10:52 - Jun 14 with 1512 views | hubble |
| General Election Thread on 09:23 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
‘I don’t know what the answer is’
I do.
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The dictatorship of the proletariat achieved through violent revolution? Yeah, great idea. That's worked really well elsewhere, after all. |  |
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| General Election Thread on 10:54 - Jun 14 with 1522 views | Juzzie |
| General Election Thread on 19:10 - Jun 13 by Jevlar |
The older I get the more I think, I just want people in charge who serve us, and not themselves and their mates… wishful thinking
Sunak and Starmer both at the their core feel relatively centrist and looking more widely it feels like extremes (right) on the rise in Europe will be the future battleground when the next election cycle hits. |
IMO that's the essence of what politicians should do. They are there to serve us & the country. I wonder if they've forgotten this.
The infantile bickering that is so tedious in parliament seems they're just serving their own interests and oneupmanship over the greater good.
I also hate the usage of the phrase "... in power". They are not 'in power', though it feels it at times. [Post edited 14 Jun 14:42]
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| General Election Thread on 11:09 - Jun 14 with 1480 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 10:52 - Jun 14 by hubble |
The dictatorship of the proletariat achieved through violent revolution? Yeah, great idea. That's worked really well elsewhere, after all. |
That's not what marxism is, but i'm not going to inflict LfW with a lecture about it so will leave it there. |  | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:22 - Jun 14 with 1445 views | colinallcars |
| General Election Thread on 11:09 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
That's not what marxism is, but i'm not going to inflict LfW with a lecture about it so will leave it there. |
I dunno about Marx, he didn't like Assam tea did he ? | | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:31 - Jun 14 with 1421 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 11:22 - Jun 14 by colinallcars |
I dunno about Marx, he didn't like Assam tea did he ? |
His sister Onya was a decent track athlete. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:32 - Jun 14 with 1418 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 10:13 - Jun 14 by Clive_Anderson |
I don't think reducing immigration would cause wages to suddenly rise to £60 an hour, would be a slow increase in wages over time and a slow increase in prices to match. Hopefully as wages increase more people will want to work and things will even out.
Any direction from here is going to be difficult, I don't think that continuing to increase the population of the country by 750k+ a year (over double the population of Nottingham) is sustainable. |
I think that second par is basically where I’m coming from. It’s a very difficult road out of here whichever way we head, totally agree. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:36 - Jun 14 with 1379 views | hubble |
| General Election Thread on 11:09 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
That's not what marxism is, but i'm not going to inflict LfW with a lecture about it so will leave it there. |
It's not what Marxism is? Well in lieu of that tantalising refusal to lecture us all, I'm just going to put this out there (collated from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictatorship_of_the_proletariat), in case anyone thought Marxism was just a slightly less fluffy form of socialism:
"The phrase dictatorship of the proletariat was first used by Karl Marx in a series of articles which were later republished as The Class Struggle in France 1848–1850."
"While Karl Marx did not write much about the nature of the dictatorship of the proletariat, The Communist Manifesto (1848) stated "their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions."
In light of the Hungarian Revolution of 1848, Marx wrote that "there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."
In Marxist philosophy, the dictatorship of the proletariat is a condition in which the proletariat, or working class, holds control over state power. The dictatorship of the proletariat is the transitional phase from a capitalist and a communist economy, whereby the post-revolutionary state seizes the means of production, mandates the implementation of direct elections on behalf of and within the confines of the ruling proletarian state party, and institutes elected delegates into representative workers' councils that nationalise ownership of the means of production from private to collective ownership." | |
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| General Election Thread on 11:41 - Jun 14 with 1356 views | colinallcars |
| General Election Thread on 11:31 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
His sister Onya was a decent track athlete. |
Nice to see the ol' ones coming out !
We'll have Britannia Waives The Rules next… | | | |
| General Election Thread on 11:58 - Jun 14 with 1283 views | Stainrod |
I think there is actually quite a lot people TEND to agree on in this thread:
General unhappiness with the Tories
Not massive enthusiasm for Labour
Openness to smaller parties
Even on immigration:
Liberals like me have agreed that immigration DOES result in problems (as well as benefits), particularly for those on lower wages and in poorer areas
Most agree that living standards have remained far too flat for far too long
Where there is genuine difference is whether (like the Reform-type posters on here) you think immigration is the CAUSE of many of our country's ills or whether (like me and a number of others) you think its a symptom of far deeper problems.
As some have concluded, there are no easy solutions: you haul up the drawbridge on globalisation, stop immigration and increase wages - fine. But we still live in a globalised world where the Chinese can pay $1 a day to workers. Its not just foreign workers in this country we have to compete with.
The challenge to me is how do you raise productivity in the UK and create high value jobs which aren't so easy for the Chinese etc to undercut?
To me that means things like:
Encouraging pension funds and businesses to invest in British tech firms - when Britain has had a genuinely really exciting tech company it has in almost every case been swallowed up by a big, usually American conglomerate.
Incentivise investment
Invest in education
Invest in health
Invest in infrastructure
But all these problems are highly complex and the reason I am sceptical of the Farages (and Corbyns) of this world is anyone promising easy solutions probably hasn't understood the problem. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 14:35 - Jun 14 with 1060 views | R_from_afar |
Technology can help but I've seen a documentary about trying to replace farm workers with machines and there remain some huge challenges. It's very difficult, if not currently impossible, and costly to replicate the combination of vision and grip required for some activities, not just picking produce but also some of the processes involving in growing it.
For a while, I worked full time in a plant nursery when I was a teenager and some of the processes required a very deft and gentle touch, like potting on young plants and taking the top bud out of a plant to make it bush out rather than just grow upwards. We did have a potting machine which greatly speeded up that process - and was a tremendous laugh to use as we used to keep upping the operating speed to see how fast we could work, until invariably, a pot was placed in the driller on a slant and couldn't be filled properly.
I understand the theory of only bringing in immigrants to do highly skilled jobs, but every country, no matter how high tech, is going to need binmen, farm workers and healthcare assistants. It's not just that these jobs are poorly paid, they are hard work. After I got made redundant recently, I actually considered a farm labouring job and investigated a place offering them locally. A requirement was that you had to live on site, which was the killer for me.
As an aside, there were other factors which made that plant nursery job pretty gruelling:
- Your clothes got destroyed
- It was filthy work, obs
- I got rashes on my hands from all the contact with plants and, probably more importantly, loitering insects
- Some of the long and tedious tasks messed with your head. When you've spent 90 minutes walking up and down a field, staring at seemingly countless potted plants in a bid to find and deal with any which aren't sat straight (for automated watering purposes), you can start seeing endless rows of the damn things in your sleep. Well, I did, at least.
I don't think there are any easy answers but I can't believe there are many countries of the size and nature of the UK which can currently manage without *any* immigration. |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| General Election Thread on 14:56 - Jun 14 with 1001 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 14:35 - Jun 14 by R_from_afar |
Technology can help but I've seen a documentary about trying to replace farm workers with machines and there remain some huge challenges. It's very difficult, if not currently impossible, and costly to replicate the combination of vision and grip required for some activities, not just picking produce but also some of the processes involving in growing it.
For a while, I worked full time in a plant nursery when I was a teenager and some of the processes required a very deft and gentle touch, like potting on young plants and taking the top bud out of a plant to make it bush out rather than just grow upwards. We did have a potting machine which greatly speeded up that process - and was a tremendous laugh to use as we used to keep upping the operating speed to see how fast we could work, until invariably, a pot was placed in the driller on a slant and couldn't be filled properly.
I understand the theory of only bringing in immigrants to do highly skilled jobs, but every country, no matter how high tech, is going to need binmen, farm workers and healthcare assistants. It's not just that these jobs are poorly paid, they are hard work. After I got made redundant recently, I actually considered a farm labouring job and investigated a place offering them locally. A requirement was that you had to live on site, which was the killer for me.
As an aside, there were other factors which made that plant nursery job pretty gruelling:
- Your clothes got destroyed
- It was filthy work, obs
- I got rashes on my hands from all the contact with plants and, probably more importantly, loitering insects
- Some of the long and tedious tasks messed with your head. When you've spent 90 minutes walking up and down a field, staring at seemingly countless potted plants in a bid to find and deal with any which aren't sat straight (for automated watering purposes), you can start seeing endless rows of the damn things in your sleep. Well, I did, at least.
I don't think there are any easy answers but I can't believe there are many countries of the size and nature of the UK which can currently manage without *any* immigration. |
Having disparaged this thread yesterday can I say it has actually been enlightening, as with the poster who worked in the licensing trade a dozen or so pages back, when somebody who knows what they're talking about adds input, so thank you. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:00 - Jun 14 with 991 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| General Election Thread on 14:56 - Jun 14 by Northernr |
Having disparaged this thread yesterday can I say it has actually been enlightening, as with the poster who worked in the licensing trade a dozen or so pages back, when somebody who knows what they're talking about adds input, so thank you. |
You should consider how this forum would look if we restricted contributions to industry experts only. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 15:06 - Jun 14 with 982 views | Northernr |
| General Election Thread on 15:00 - Jun 14 by BazzaInTheLoft |
You should consider how this forum would look if we restricted contributions to industry experts only. |
We're tired of experts Baz. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 22:05 - Jun 14 with 751 views | derbyhoop |
| General Election Thread on 07:10 - Jun 14 by Clive_Anderson |
Immigration works fine if you only give out visas for high paying work. The government seems to have other ideas, giving them out like confetti for low skilled workers and that's if they are working at all.
Immigration cost the country £15bn from 1995-2011 I dread to think of what it is costing now after the massive influx of the last few years:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-25880373 |
UK hasnt got enough available workers to fill numerous low paid positions. Either through not being fit for work or a life on benefits. The former affected by 7.5m on NHS waiting lists. The care sector, hospitality and construction are dependent on immigrant workers who are unlikely to earn £38k.
Generally, immigrants are young, out of education and going to work for a long time. I remember figures showing immigrants paying more tax per head than native workers. So I really dont understand where you get your figures from. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| General Election Thread on 22:53 - Jun 14 with 661 views | numptydumpty |
The conservative campaign from its beginnings has been the most shambolic, chaotic, embarrassing , gaffe ridden, amateur f*ck up of the most extreme kind !!!
Sunak has proven he is more of an robot than Starmer
Farage has taken his opportunities once more.
Thats it !!!
The country is up the duff !! |  |
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| General Election Thread on 22:53 - Jun 14 with 663 views | StJude82 |
Check out the Greens manifesto. It certifies their extreme left wing-edness. | | | |
| General Election Thread on 02:01 - Jun 15 with 578 views | SydneyRs |
| General Election Thread on 08:59 - Jun 14 by loftboy |
“ The increasing number of people over retirement age need pensions, health care etc. In the UK this requires funding from the tax base funded by working people. If the tax base is dwindling (which it certainly would be without immigration) while the retirement age population grows, who funds these things? And how?”
Here we go shades of Russian Bot here, can I remind you that my generation unless academically gifted left school at 16, started work immediately, my first tax code gave me a tax free allowance of £1275 compared with £12500 today, we paid over 20 P in the pound tax, once married the only help available was child benefit, there was no tax credits, or universal credit to back up your wages, you wanted more money you did more overtime.
As I’ve said previously by the time I get my state pension ( which is one of the lowest in Europe) I’d have worked for 51 years. I think I’ve contributed to my pension, don’t you? |
Absolutely, yes.
I wasn't trying to say that retired people don't deserve or shouldn't get pensions. The issue is there is now and will be in the future more people than ever in that age group and the costs have to be funded from the current tax base, not what those people paid into the system when working. They would have been funding those who were retired when they were in the workforce.
The ratio of retired non workers to tax paying workers has changed. There are simply a lot more over 65s than there used to be. So it costs more to fund their pensions than it used to.
Nobody wants to see the pensions taken away therefore you have to increase tax revenue. The only ways to do this is to either significantly raise income taxes or get more people of working age into the workforce. It's a big reason why there is so much immigration and why the ideas of someone like Farage are a fantasy. | | | |
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