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Iran kicked out of the World Cup over the treatment of women in their country, luckily the World Cup is being held in a forward thinking expressive country.
Iran’s a strange country. There’s a perception from the outside world of the subjugation of the women that ignores the fact that it’s women enforcing it. Completely denying them agency over their actions.
Yes, it is ironic that there are calls for Iran to be banned from the World Cup, but it speaks of the power and divid within the country that the expat community has such influence whilst there’s another class of Iranians desperately coming over on boats.
Iran’s a strange country. There’s a perception from the outside world of the subjugation of the women that ignores the fact that it’s women enforcing it. Completely denying them agency over their actions.
Yes, it is ironic that there are calls for Iran to be banned from the World Cup, but it speaks of the power and divid within the country that the expat community has such influence whilst there’s another class of Iranians desperately coming over on boats.
So it's women's fault that women are subjugated? You probably need to think a little deeper about the dynamics of power.
Also, going by footage from the recent demonstrations, it doesn't seem as though there any women in the morality police. I don't think there are any female clerics, either.
So it's women's fault that women are subjugated? You probably need to think a little deeper about the dynamics of power.
Also, going by footage from the recent demonstrations, it doesn't seem as though there any women in the morality police. I don't think there are any female clerics, either.
I’m not saying it’s entirely women’s fault, but having looked deeper into the issue than most I know it’s a more complicated picture than is painted in the west.
It’s a fact that there are women driven by religious conviction who enforce the modesty laws. I’m saying you can’t deny these people agency over their action. I also believe the main issue in Iran is the divid between the urban and rural, not men vs women.
Iran is a deeply religious country. Progressives tend to look at one aspect of society and take that at face value. Yes, people are outraged by the treatment of women, but that is compounded by the effects of years of sanctions.
I don’t think the issue here is the dynamics of power, in my opinion it’s about a country that has had its development stifled resulting in a deep divid within the society that has expressed itself in religious fundamentalism. To understand and get to the root of that will prevent the country lurching into another destructive revolution.
I’m not saying it’s entirely women’s fault, but having looked deeper into the issue than most I know it’s a more complicated picture than is painted in the west.
It’s a fact that there are women driven by religious conviction who enforce the modesty laws. I’m saying you can’t deny these people agency over their action. I also believe the main issue in Iran is the divid between the urban and rural, not men vs women.
Iran is a deeply religious country. Progressives tend to look at one aspect of society and take that at face value. Yes, people are outraged by the treatment of women, but that is compounded by the effects of years of sanctions.
I don’t think the issue here is the dynamics of power, in my opinion it’s about a country that has had its development stifled resulting in a deep divid within the society that has expressed itself in religious fundamentalism. To understand and get to the root of that will prevent the country lurching into another destructive revolution.
[Post edited 25 Oct 2022 12:45]
You're always going to get people colluding in their own repression: the benefit claimants that vote Conservative; the women that wouldn't want a female priest/Prime Minister/boss; the black voters that supported Trump etc. I'm sure the reasons for this are complex. You can't argue that a group people don't deserve decent treatment because some of their number support and collude with the oppressors or that they are the architects of it.
To say that women are enforcing the rules while leaving out the part where it's women that are bravely leading the change seems a bit unbalanced.
The part of your argument about urban vs rural is more interesting. The divide between the two seems so great, it's hard to see it being easily filled.
I'm not quite so clear what you mean about the stifling of development leading to religious fundamentalism. Surely the religious fundamentalism took over when the Shah was overthrown?
You're always going to get people colluding in their own repression: the benefit claimants that vote Conservative; the women that wouldn't want a female priest/Prime Minister/boss; the black voters that supported Trump etc. I'm sure the reasons for this are complex. You can't argue that a group people don't deserve decent treatment because some of their number support and collude with the oppressors or that they are the architects of it.
To say that women are enforcing the rules while leaving out the part where it's women that are bravely leading the change seems a bit unbalanced.
The part of your argument about urban vs rural is more interesting. The divide between the two seems so great, it's hard to see it being easily filled.
I'm not quite so clear what you mean about the stifling of development leading to religious fundamentalism. Surely the religious fundamentalism took over when the Shah was overthrown?
I read an interesting piece on Iran some years ago, about the president and the ayatollah, about how you couldn't take everything the president at the time said at face value because he was playing a balancing act between liberalisation and appeasing the fundamentalists, about how American Intelligence (sic) agencies didn't view Iran as a long term threat because there was such a growing, aspirational, middle class.
So we put an end to that.
We were friendly with a Christian Iranian family, who talked to us about life under the despotic shah the west installed, and about how so many people backed the fundamentalists as they were the ones prepared to fight the feared security apparatus.
On a different issue, Nix, Biden's said and done record on issues of race (the 1994 'biden bill', opposing desegregation of schools) probably doesn't compare too well to trump's? very low bar, I know, but this current trend of determining who people should vote for based on the colour of their skin, as opposed to how they feel on political, social, economic issues etc is hugely reductive and divisive,people end up labelled as traitors, superficial etc.
Humph. I think you better stay in Newcastle tonight!!
*No offence intended, other versions of Islam are available
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
You're always going to get people colluding in their own repression: the benefit claimants that vote Conservative; the women that wouldn't want a female priest/Prime Minister/boss; the black voters that supported Trump etc. I'm sure the reasons for this are complex. You can't argue that a group people don't deserve decent treatment because some of their number support and collude with the oppressors or that they are the architects of it.
To say that women are enforcing the rules while leaving out the part where it's women that are bravely leading the change seems a bit unbalanced.
The part of your argument about urban vs rural is more interesting. The divide between the two seems so great, it's hard to see it being easily filled.
I'm not quite so clear what you mean about the stifling of development leading to religious fundamentalism. Surely the religious fundamentalism took over when the Shah was overthrown?
I'm not arguing that people don't deserve better treatment. Also, I'm not defending the Islamic regime. I'm fully in support of regime change.
The points I raised were to highlight that Iran is a bit more complex than what is portrayed in the media. I know most people know that, but it is worth mentioning as it helps to understand why things are the way they are and why protests might not bring about progressive change in the way that people in the west would hope for.
The problem in Iran is that there is a convergence of experience that has been intensified by the impact of the sanctions . The results is people doubling down on their beliefs. It's like a very extreme and violent version of Brexit. You have a lot of different people with grievances and at the moment there's no solution.
If Iran are kicked out the world cup it will just add to an already miserable situation. Football is really popular and is probably the one thing that unties the country.
I read an interesting piece on Iran some years ago, about the president and the ayatollah, about how you couldn't take everything the president at the time said at face value because he was playing a balancing act between liberalisation and appeasing the fundamentalists, about how American Intelligence (sic) agencies didn't view Iran as a long term threat because there was such a growing, aspirational, middle class.
So we put an end to that.
We were friendly with a Christian Iranian family, who talked to us about life under the despotic shah the west installed, and about how so many people backed the fundamentalists as they were the ones prepared to fight the feared security apparatus.
On a different issue, Nix, Biden's said and done record on issues of race (the 1994 'biden bill', opposing desegregation of schools) probably doesn't compare too well to trump's? very low bar, I know, but this current trend of determining who people should vote for based on the colour of their skin, as opposed to how they feel on political, social, economic issues etc is hugely reductive and divisive,people end up labelled as traitors, superficial etc.
Humph. I think you better stay in Newcastle tonight!!
I didn't mean to upset anyone or say you have to vote for any particular party because of the colour of your skin. I was just trying to make the wider point that people can at times collude in their own oppression.
And I agree no-one should be castigated for following their own conscience. I'll stay up here though for now just in case!
I'm not arguing that people don't deserve better treatment. Also, I'm not defending the Islamic regime. I'm fully in support of regime change.
The points I raised were to highlight that Iran is a bit more complex than what is portrayed in the media. I know most people know that, but it is worth mentioning as it helps to understand why things are the way they are and why protests might not bring about progressive change in the way that people in the west would hope for.
The problem in Iran is that there is a convergence of experience that has been intensified by the impact of the sanctions . The results is people doubling down on their beliefs. It's like a very extreme and violent version of Brexit. You have a lot of different people with grievances and at the moment there's no solution.
If Iran are kicked out the world cup it will just add to an already miserable situation. Football is really popular and is probably the one thing that unties the country.
That's an interesting perspective and inspires me to learn more!
There is only so much of this I can Ayatollah-rate!
Damnit I was halfway through working on that one! Two very high quality puns beforehand I must say.
Very interesting discussion about Iran though - I too remember that description of the growing liberalisation internally, and struggled to understand what happened in the years since (other than the obvious), so some of this helps fill it/me in.
the desert cup? sodding joke a sell out by fifa, why didn;t more teams.fa speal out when qatar bid? why wait til weeks away from it/ i hope a team scores and they celebrate with a full on strip and semi orgy, live on tv and how do you like them apples!
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