| Grammar Schools 22:17 - Sep 8 with 19552 views | texasranger |
I can't help feeling that much of the currently fashionable condemnation of grammar schools is based on two false premises; that they are socially divisive, and that kids who failed the old 11-plus were branded as 'failures'. I'm an old geezer now who went to a boys only grammar school in the early 1950's but we had all sorts there, bright academics through to some right tearaways. I was just a boy from a working class family but I enjoyed and benefited from grammar school though not enough to go to university, doing two years National service instead, but my mates outside school were a mixture of Secondary Modern, Technical and Grammar school boys. We got along fine and theTech and S/Modern boys went on to become printers, plumbers, builders and engineers, all of whom I suspect made more money than I did. Surely any school regardless of type will grade kids by ability and attempting to force kids of different backgrounds to socialise will not work. Finally, condemning today's grammar schools on account of the number of kids getting free school meals seems totally irrelevant. I realise I may be the only surviving Rangers supporter who went to a grammar school so if I get any response I expect it to be unfavourable. No matter. Come on you RRRRRRRRRR's ! |  | | |  |
| Grammar Schools on 16:01 - Sep 9 with 2366 views | dannyblue |
I’m still on the fence about grammar schools.
It certainly seems insane to determine a child’s entire educational future based on an exam when they’re 11 and I’m wary of any ghettoisation or labelling.
But there also seems to be a lot of value in specialised approaches to education depending on a child’s particular needs, aspirations and likely outcomes. Some need structure. Some need play. Some should aim for university, others to learn a trade.
Ultimately, whether that specialisation is delivered in different institutions, or different streams within the same institution, I think matters less than the specialisation itself. And, of course, the chance to move between tracks as requirements change. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:09 - Sep 9 with 2348 views | Gaztastic |
| Grammar Schools on 15:29 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
This is (another) of my annoyances with the system.
There were kids at my sixth form who shouldn't have been there, and there were kids who were subsequently packed off to do nothing degrees at nothing universities, because it reflects well on the school's figures and league tables if all the students go to sixth form (whether it's suited to them or not) and well on the college if they all go to university, even if it's to study the life and times of Graeme Souness at the University of Dunstable.
There was never any suggestion, encouragement, opportunity or training offered to be a leccy, or a gas engineer, or a plumber, or a carpenter or anything like that, even though that was a much better option for loads of kids. Scraping together 5 A-Cs and a place on an irrelevant course at a poor university looks better on the league tables than qualifying in a trade where you could run your own business, earn great money, and provide a service the country actually needs!
We're too busy saying "oh everybody has to be absolutely equal" "everybody should have the opportunity to go to university" and too scared to say, "well actually that kid clearly would be suited to university so let's get her to a good one on a good course, whereas that kid would be much better suited to an apprenticeship or learning a trade so let's tailor his situation accordingly."
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Do you need a hug Clive?? I feel for you and your sh*tty school experience. Fortunately for us you somehow made it out alive and have gifted us the marvelous LFW. p.s "Bravo" on gender choices in your final paragraph egs. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:10 - Sep 9 with 2347 views | NW5Hoop |
| Grammar Schools on 08:33 - Sep 9 by Gloucs_R |
Which one? |
Herschel. You? | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:10 - Sep 9 with 2344 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Grammar Schools on 16:00 - Sep 9 by Antti_Heinola |
No, I said I liked being at the Grammar I went to was better than the comp I went to. That's not to say Grammars are better than Comps. Just that that Grammar was better than that comp.
Why not a 'Grammar' for the least successful pupils? Give them the best teachers, the best equipment etc? Wouldn't that be more equal?
The whole point of education is that it's elitist? Strange viewpoint. The whole point? |
Well I think your experience was pretty typical with respect to comprehensives and grammars.
No one said give the grammars all the best teachers and equipment. The idea is to tailor schools to sort different sorts of people.
Ok elitism isn't the whole point of education, but it is the way the current system grades outcomes. I don't think awarding everyone the same grade regardless of performance is going to help much.
I'm interested why you seem to be ok with Universities being elitist with regards to entrance but not schools (unless you aren't, but that would be pretty crazy). | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:16 - Sep 9 with 2336 views | SimonJames |
I don't think it will be many more years before all education is multi-media, delivered by computer, and children can work at their own pace in specific subjects, irrespective of their age.
In that scenario I think school teachers will mainly be there to focus on developing children's social skills and giving clarification on what's been taught via the computers.
And institutions like grammar schools will be far less relevant. |  |
| 100% of people who drink water will die. |
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| Grammar Schools on 16:18 - Sep 9 with 2350 views | Brightonhoop |
| Grammar Schools on 11:25 - Sep 9 by Konk |
We had kids who were always planning to go and work with their Dads in either the Trades or local factories, and they spent most lessons being as disruptive as possible, which made life Hell for the poor teachers and meant that you couldn't learn, even if you wanted to. I think everyone would have been happier if from say 14 onwards, they'd been doing something along the lines of building college/mechanics rather than throwing chairs at Mr Adams in History or throwing Mark Little's pencil case contents, blazer and shoes out of the window every single lesson. I'd keep Maths and English up all the way through. |
Mine had a builders unit attatched precisely for that reason. Most of them have gone on to make earnings to make a merchant banker weep. It was a Secondary Modern all boys set up in West London that laughed it's ar$e off at being made up to a Comprehensive in west London.
The Headmaster was a Welshman who had packed the staff room with welshman who had had a choice of the mines or teaching via university. They got the message across, do well, at least try. And you didn't fck with them. There was a common answer to 'Why, Sir?' which was 'Becuase if you don't I'll kick the $h1t out of you boyo.' Generally got the job done and have very fond memories of the place, for all its violence. The fear of violent discipline helped alot with over 1000 teenage boys running rampage 5 days a week. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 16:19]
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| Grammar Schools on 16:24 - Sep 9 with 2344 views | wortonranger |
| Grammar Schools on 00:16 - Sep 9 by QPR_Jim |
It's funny because without a vociferous mother I wouldn't have had the chance to sit the 11+ because my teachers at the time thought it would be a waste of time. Anyway my mum talked them around and I was the only boy from my school that passed that year, which I'm not sure my teacher was too happy about.
I definitely benefited from the grammar school education improving year on year in a way that I think was unexpected of me. As I benefited from the system I find it hard to argue against it as I would want others to benefit in the same way although I do see how it can be unfair. |
Without my grammar school education I might not have had the chance to study geography at Oxford around the same time as a certain Mrs May. I had some hope for our future when she got the big job as I hoped she would understand the world in a similar way to me thanks to the tutors we shared. However, oh dear oh dear. Grammar schools are as Tory an idea as you can get. Fundamentally flawed, unfair, cruel, crazy like most of the Recent education policies. When will they, and the many who love the idea ( presumably assuming that they and their progeny will all attend them) realise that they should listen to the vast majority of those who actually know something about kids and education. They are an idea that should be consigned to the history books. They mainly don't work. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 16:27 - Sep 9 with 2340 views | Northernr |
| Grammar Schools on 16:09 - Sep 9 by Gaztastic |
Do you need a hug Clive?? I feel for you and your sh*tty school experience. Fortunately for us you somehow made it out alive and have gifted us the marvelous LFW. p.s "Bravo" on gender choices in your final paragraph egs. |
It was honestly the worst five or six years of my life. It's 16 years ago now but if it ever comes up in conversation or whatever in front of my mum she still cries now because she's never forgiven herself for the decisions she made about where I should go and the effect it had on me. |  | | |
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| Grammar Schools on 17:01 - Sep 9 with 2289 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Great thread. Only ever went to school in England for three years - St. Greg's in Kenton for GCE's and A Levels - so haven't much to add to the conversation. Enjoying reading and learning from you all, though. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 17:07 - Sep 9 with 2279 views | nix |
| Grammar Schools on 16:27 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
It was honestly the worst five or six years of my life. It's 16 years ago now but if it ever comes up in conversation or whatever in front of my mum she still cries now because she's never forgiven herself for the decisions she made about where I should go and the effect it had on me. |
Blimey Clive your experience sounds absolutely fking awful, and is a shameful indictment of our education system. I'm just worried that grammar schools per se are not the answer to avoid people like you experiencing such a catastrophic experience. As I say, middle class folk (like me I confess) have extremely pointy elbows, and will think nothing of bagging the spots at the best schools. Tutoring for the exams works. It's a massive industry where I live.
It just seems that there needs to be an approach that address a range of issues to ensure it doesn't happen to kids like you were. I don't know why this is such a problem here but there seems to be a prevailing sense of anti-intellectualism in this country, that just doesn't appear so prevalent in other countries. Why is it so lame to read (or indeed write) a book, play a classical instrument, join a debating society, do well in your exams? I once talked to someone who was teaching maths to QPR apprentices, and she told me that one of them admitted to dumbing down (not answering questions in class etc) because he didn't want to appear to clever in front of his mates wtf?!
Then, as others have said, school needs to be more relevant to children who aren't so interested in academic subjects. There has to be more choice. I'd have wanted to shoot myself if Id had to study art, needlework and technical drawing all day, as I haven't got the slightest talent in any of them. But I admire people who have. That must be what it's like for people with great practical skills but no interest (or minimal ability) in English Literature, history or French. You'd feel pretty rubbish having to do them all day and constantly failing. I'm not saying less academic people should do no traditional subjects, but should at least have a more balance curriculum.
Finally I just think there's a poverty of ambition in our schools. They seem to be amazed if anyone gets an A in anything. They also don't seem to be able to inspire our kids into knowing what opportunities are available to them and how to achieve them.
By the way, as a mum myself, I understand how your mum must feel about your education. I'd have felt awful too. But she's obviously done a terrific job given the way you've risen above all those terrible experiences. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 17:23]
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| Grammar Schools on 17:18 - Sep 9 with 2262 views | hopphoops |
| Grammar Schools on 16:27 - Sep 9 by Northernr |
It was honestly the worst five or six years of my life. It's 16 years ago now but if it ever comes up in conversation or whatever in front of my mum she still cries now because she's never forgiven herself for the decisions she made about where I should go and the effect it had on me. |
Sounds like a combination of bad school and also bad government that didn't greatly care what those kids were picking up at home.
Out of idle curiosity i google mapped Scunthorpe and even the churches are flat-roofed terrors!
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.5846155,-0.6450373,3a,75y,178.6h,82.36t/data=!3m |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 17:38 - Sep 9 with 2243 views | londonscottish |
| Grammar Schools on 13:44 - Sep 9 by CamberleyR |
"let's get the streaming back to reflect the different aspirations, abilities and attitude of the various kids"
Absolutely agree LS. The comp I went to in the late 70s had previously been a grammar school and turned comp about 4-5 years before I went there. There was still a lot of the ethos of the old grammar when I went there with the headmaster wearing a gown all the time (he scared the shit out of you) and the deputy heads doing the same at assemblies etc. The school uniform had remained the same as the grammar days too.
They also retained the streaming system so that like you from the second year onwards the brighter kids learned together without disruption and could flourish. If you weren't pulling your weight in a subject, the next term you would be demoted a set. This happened to me once and I know I worked doubly hard that next term to get back to the top set. I don't see anything wrong with this at all and this way of working should have been retained by the Comprehensive system. [Post edited 9 Sep 2016 13:45]
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Thanks Cambs.
Unfortunately is seems streaming in (secondary) state schools these days is massively frowned upon.
It's eerily like the attitude towards competitive sports in primary schools. At the one my girl goes to there is literally none in case the kids who are sh8t at sports get upset. FFS....
There's one mum who took it on herself to start a running club for all kids and a netball club for the girls. Guess what? The kids LOVE it. There's now huge competition to get into the netball team, they've now beaten the local private school two years in a row ans this year will be in a small tournament.
Yet education "experts" wring their hands worrying so much about the poor little things that don't wins or don't get on the podium and so they kill it for everyone else. FFS - THIS IS WHAT LIFE IS LIKE!!!!! You win some but you lose a lot more and what better preparation for life could there be?
Meanwhile all the kids at grammar and private schools are doing at least 3 sport a year to a high standard and learning discipline and organisation, learning how to win and how to cope with losing.
Boils my piss all this dumbing down. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 17:44 - Sep 9 with 2235 views | ted_hendrix |
| Grammar Schools on 06:26 - Sep 9 by Gloucs_R |
I went to grammar school in Slough and I'll be tutoring my lads to get into grammar school in Gloucestershire. I do feel as though we need to rethink secondary schooling... More options for non academic training should be given and started earlier. I'm not saying kids should be able drop Maths and English but more emphasis on design tech, home economics and engineering. |
"emphasis on design tech, home economics and engineering."
I work for a huge construction Company and we are basically designing and building educational establishments of all descriptions as fast as we humanly can,
I manage our projects after completion and I've spent this afternoon at a school we finished some 10 Months ago, you should see their engineering class room, Its huge its full of lathes, all manner of machinery and a modern Austin Mini that the kids learn to strip down and rebuild, The room is heated or cooled dependant on the outside weather with back up systems in the event of failure, what a way to receive your education.
The Academy I was at yesterday constructed some 5 Years ago has a first floor art centre absolutely crammed full of every piece of kit that a young kid that wants to learn about or have a career in art would want, next door is the design technology, and surprise-surprise we even built them a library that's full of books. We also built them a MUGA that is floodlit and all weather tennis and basketball pitches
The point I'm making is it's long been recognised the modern educational needs and that is how these schools be they free schools or academies or any other description are now designed.
Next door to the school I was at today we are in the middle of building a 1200 pupil school with three football pitches.
Cant get involved in the Grammar school debate what I can say though is if I was a nipper now with just a tiny bit of common sense I'd bet I get a better education now compared to the bloody education I got back in the late 50's early 60's, the new schools being built are absolutely superb, (as are the teachers if i'm honest). |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| Grammar Schools on 17:54 - Sep 9 with 2221 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Grammar Schools on 16:10 - Sep 9 by Clive_Anderson |
Well I think your experience was pretty typical with respect to comprehensives and grammars.
No one said give the grammars all the best teachers and equipment. The idea is to tailor schools to sort different sorts of people.
Ok elitism isn't the whole point of education, but it is the way the current system grades outcomes. I don't think awarding everyone the same grade regardless of performance is going to help much.
I'm interested why you seem to be ok with Universities being elitist with regards to entrance but not schools (unless you aren't, but that would be pretty crazy). |
Clive - let's discuss this over a pint mate. I'm not a million miles away from you on this, but honestly haven't got time to write an essay on it! Suffice to say, though, that firstly Unis consider much more than grades and secondly by the age of 18 people are more rounded and their abilities are clearer than they are at the tender age of 10/11, where it seems mad to me to start hacking them apart.
Absolutely believe different schools should tailor to different people - but Grammars are a different thing altogether to that, IMO. Also, there were tons of people who did bugger all at my Grammar because they simply found it too taxing, so they just got left behind too. It did give the best students a better chance of going to Oxbridge, but that was a tiny percentage. They got extra truition (free), coaching etc - yet they were the ones that needed it least. It was a joke. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 17:59 - Sep 9 with 2218 views | A40Bosh |
| Grammar Schools on 14:41 - Sep 9 by Clive_Anderson |
If there are enough grammar schools for anyone who would benefit them, then why would it push up house prices?
Also not improving education because it might affect house prices seems a bit silly. How's about also tackling house prices anyway which are completely absurd. |
I am obviously not articulating myself very well here and people are getting hung up on me mentioning house prices in catchment areas - that is unimportant in this argument in the grand scheme of things.
I am not saying DONT BUILD GRAMMAR SCHOOLS IT WILL PUSH HOUSE PRICES UP, I simply implied that a byproduct of opening more Grammar schools would lead to more areas seeing increases in already over inflated house values and that is not a helpful byproduct for a lot of people at this time who cannot get on the ladder as it is.
What I am saying is don't build more grammar schools based on the argument that it will improve the overall education standards for the majority of pupils, because it won't . It will just lead to more people being caught up in the need to put their children in to this middle tier of education whereby you are either bright enough or have parents with the money to pay for private tuition to ensure you get in to a Grammar and then cope in a Grammar. Unless they are going to put in new foundations of what a Grammar school's remit is then those who are not the brightest and cannot afford tuition or those who come from a background that does not aspire to improving are left behind in the comprehensives that will continue to get less funding, attract lesser quality teaching staff and will fall further behind.
Building more Grammar schools does not fix education. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 20:51 - Sep 9 with 2145 views | baz_qpr |
The education proposals are utterly bonkers, more grammar schools, secondary moderns / vocational, 100% faith schools. As society the last thing we need to be doing is creating walled gardens defining difference through wealth, intelligence, your sex or religion. That is backward, divisive, dangerous and has no relevance in the modern world.
Lets actually pause for a minute and consider what is happening now and in the next 10 years. manufacturing is becoming more automated through massive advances in robotics, 3D printing means less components need to be made and assembled, then imported, AI developments mean many administration or information based tasks can be done entirely by computers much of banking will become automated, many parts of legal will become automated. Self driving transport is already here that has a huge impact on logistics etc This stuff is not going away, there will be less and less "jobs" not just for the unskilled but also for skilled traditional jobs such as legal, finance and accountancy. There will always be jobs in building, plumbing engineering, creative industries etc
Everyone needs to be better educated, our kids need to be taught to code, some of this stuff is difficult but they said that about reading 100 years ago.
The world has changed and is changing rapidly and trying to harp back to the education you,we had in the 60's 70's 80's or 90's is totally irrelevant.
If you have 10 minutes please listen to this ted talk https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/tedtalks-audio/id160904630?mt=2&i=375039885 by Sal Khan.
In it he talks about the concept of teaching for mastery. Our education systems have become overly obsessed with meaningless exams and trying to teach kids to pass these exams. What he points out is that the way we teach of cramming a subject into a two week slot before moving on to the next subject with some kids getting it straight away and others only getting 75%, 50% before time is up etc is crazy. We are throwing away so much potential, leading to disengaged kids who falter because they have not mastered stage one before moving onto stage 2 etc. We would not do this anywhere else build the walls of a building with the foundations only 80% done, build the next floor with only 75% of the walls etc. Please take a listen
The problem is not schools, selection etc. Its the system of what is being taught and how its being taught and then tested. We need the system to work in a way that each child can learn and fully understand what they are learning at their own pace, a pace that may change at different times. Not being written of or blocked from fulfilling their potential because of their capability to take an exam at 10/11 |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 21:02 - Sep 9 with 2131 views | Metallica_Hoop |
Having gone to a state primary and then to a private secondary school (I didn't pay) I would advocate selective education everyday of the week.
You just have to make sure those with lesser abilities are well catered for sadly the 'One size Fitz Hall' merchant convoy 'speed of the slowest' approach doesn't work as those who are more able get f'kin bored and end up getting themselves sent to the library to read History books etc. |  |
| Beer and Beef has made us what we are - The Prince Regent |
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| Grammar Schools on 21:38 - Sep 9 with 2103 views | ShotKneesHoop |
I went to one, Walpole Grammar in Ealing, and the only positive two things about me going there were that I became an R's fan (because the majority of the kids there were Brentford fans); and John MacVie of Fleetwood Mac went there the same time as me, but I didnt think he'd come to anything, because he wasn't interested in cricket or football and just wanted to strum a two stringed guitar in the playground.
Most of the teachers didn't give a toss, many were dubious characters, but discipline was so tough there that you had to put up with it.
Education is being used as another political football again, nothing wrong with good comprehensives. A lot wrong with bad ones .... and faith schools, .... and academies where no one knows what the phooook is going on. |  |
| Why does it feel like R'SWiPe is still on the books? Yer Couldn't Make It Up.Well Done Me! |
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| Grammar Schools on 22:23 - Sep 9 with 2075 views | GloryHunter |
I passed the 11-plus and got sent to a Catholic boy's "grammar" school in Wealdstone. Like Clive, it was the worst five years of my life. We were taught by a bunch of no-hoper Irish priests and lay teachers, many of whom were sadistic, and some of whom were clearly sexual deviants. Mass-punishment canings were common, as was a pervasive atmosphere of bullying. And I don't recall being taught hardly any grammar. I survived, but I'm still getting over it. I had friends in the Scouts who went to Blackwell - a much derided local secondary mod - and they seemed to have a much happier time at school than I ever had. |  | | |
| Grammar Schools on 22:42 - Sep 9 with 2057 views | bolty310 |
Imagine I'm a little younger than most being 26 but i went to a Grammar school and thoroughly enjoyed (almost) every moment of it - especially sporting opportunities. I didn't perceive the elitist view at the time but looking back the expectations of top grades and inevitable continuation into University was perhaps not the norm compared to my comp mates.
One thing i would say that worked against single-sex education, in my experience, was that there was never anything to keep 30 lads in check! So it would quite often get out of hand and be detrimental to the overall learning because our primary interest was to take the p**s. An alternative view to the merits (or otherwise) of grammar education perhaps. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 00:16 - Sep 10 with 2019 views | 18StoneOfHoop |
| Grammar Schools on 12:35 - Sep 9 by stevec |
The issue is those in the education system are not prepared to tackle the real problem, disruptive classes.
As much as I stand up for Grammar schools there would be no need for them if the overwhelming majority of kids were allowed to get on with their studies. If Governments had the gumption to set up what I described jokingly as 'Scrapheap' schools, somewhere to remove the disruptive and allow probably 90-95% of kids who want to learn to do so, not only would it benefit the masses but teachers might actually get the chance to prove they can teach. |
Similar system was practised by the Third Reich from 1933 to 1945,wasn't it?
Euthanasing the 5 or 10% who just don't want to learn,as proved on the arbitary summarily-invented fictitious Schneitzer register,would surely be a step away.
Effective to some harsh anti-PC eyes maybe but not exactly fair or democratic. [Post edited 10 Sep 2016 0:22]
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| 'I'm 18 with a bullet.Got my finger on the trigger,I'm gonna pull it.."
Love,Peace and Fook Chelski!
More like 20StoneOfHoop now.
Let's face it I'm not getting any thinner.
Pass the cake and pies please. |
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| Grammar Schools on 04:33 - Sep 10 with 1974 views | LadbrokeR |
| Grammar Schools on 21:38 - Sep 9 by ShotKneesHoop |
I went to one, Walpole Grammar in Ealing, and the only positive two things about me going there were that I became an R's fan (because the majority of the kids there were Brentford fans); and John MacVie of Fleetwood Mac went there the same time as me, but I didnt think he'd come to anything, because he wasn't interested in cricket or football and just wanted to strum a two stringed guitar in the playground.
Most of the teachers didn't give a toss, many were dubious characters, but discipline was so tough there that you had to put up with it.
Education is being used as another political football again, nothing wrong with good comprehensives. A lot wrong with bad ones .... and faith schools, .... and academies where no one knows what the phooook is going on. |
Cranmer avenue Northfields that was where I went for two years and then the school amalgamated with Bordeston boys and Northfields girls. Great years we came second in the league and it was a time that fully cemented my feelings towards Chelscum. | | | |
| Grammar Schools on 07:30 - Sep 10 with 1951 views | Gloucs_R |
| Grammar Schools on 17:44 - Sep 9 by ted_hendrix |
"emphasis on design tech, home economics and engineering."
I work for a huge construction Company and we are basically designing and building educational establishments of all descriptions as fast as we humanly can,
I manage our projects after completion and I've spent this afternoon at a school we finished some 10 Months ago, you should see their engineering class room, Its huge its full of lathes, all manner of machinery and a modern Austin Mini that the kids learn to strip down and rebuild, The room is heated or cooled dependant on the outside weather with back up systems in the event of failure, what a way to receive your education.
The Academy I was at yesterday constructed some 5 Years ago has a first floor art centre absolutely crammed full of every piece of kit that a young kid that wants to learn about or have a career in art would want, next door is the design technology, and surprise-surprise we even built them a library that's full of books. We also built them a MUGA that is floodlit and all weather tennis and basketball pitches
The point I'm making is it's long been recognised the modern educational needs and that is how these schools be they free schools or academies or any other description are now designed.
Next door to the school I was at today we are in the middle of building a 1200 pupil school with three football pitches.
Cant get involved in the Grammar school debate what I can say though is if I was a nipper now with just a tiny bit of common sense I'd bet I get a better education now compared to the bloody education I got back in the late 50's early 60's, the new schools being built are absolutely superb, (as are the teachers if i'm honest). |
Good to hear, I'm probably a bit out of touch with secondary schools as my kids are little.
Can't understand the fuss about working class not getting into grammar schools... I did and I came from a single parent family. It's about attitude more than anything else. |  |
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| Grammar Schools on 08:36 - Sep 10 with 1924 views | terryb |
As a child of the '60's I have no knowledge of whether a comprehensive education would have been better for me, but I know how poor (understated) my Secondary Education was.
I place no blame on the Grammar schools for this. The fault was entirely with Buckinghamshire County council! From a social point of view, the system had no impact on me as I mixed freely with SM & Grammar pupils. This was probably down to playing & watching football.
In theory, & I'm sure in some areas you could have had a good SM education, the difference should have been small. However, Bucks spent the majority of their budget on the Grammar's, which left the SM's largely employing the dregs of the teaching market.
I was in the position of being the only member of my family to fail the 11+ so I know what the difference in teaching was. Mind you, not all grammar school pupils benefitted from their education. A fair few of them hated the amount of work that they had to do & thus scrapped "O levels" & left at 16.
I can only talk about the area I grew up in, but DR. Challoners Grammar was very forward thinking & BCC allowed them to employ enough staff to keep the number of pupils per class lower than was the case at Cestreham SM. Challoners also employed far more & varied games masters than the one we were allowed.
I don't begrudge Grammar pupils the chance to excel. I am genuinely pleased that they did. I just wish that SM pupils had had the same chance to prosper.
At Cestreham we were not taught one word of French (never mind modern languages like German!) & were allowed to drop General Science as a subject at the age of 14. English Language/ Geography (same teacher, who happened to be one of the better ones) was mainly scheduled around discussions on Cricket. History was to write word for word what the teacher had written down while a pupil at Challoners.
Thankfully, we were taught maths properly!
What else did we cover (not taught)? Metalwork, Woodwork, Technical Drawing & Gardening. For a person that it is the most impractical human ever to live these were just more subjects to become a failure in!
The OP stated that many SM scolars went on to hold skilled jobs. Some did, some of us achieved good clerical/ management jobs. The majority though had the pleasure to work on the factory floor & never rise above the level of where they started at work. Even worse, one by one the factories closed. What choice did they now have for where to work?
Therefore, the premise that the grammar school system was socailly devisive is correct. One gave you ambitiion, hope & an understanding of society. Most left the other with no knowledge of life & how to interact.
I would be quite happy for more Grammar schools to be around. Provided the same money is spent on the other schools! [Post edited 10 Sep 2016 8:43]
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| Grammar Schools on 08:43 - Sep 10 with 1920 views | nix |
| Grammar Schools on 07:30 - Sep 10 by Gloucs_R |
Good to hear, I'm probably a bit out of touch with secondary schools as my kids are little.
Can't understand the fuss about working class not getting into grammar schools... I did and I came from a single parent family. It's about attitude more than anything else. |
Attitude? Really? If that's the case, why do people spend over £3,000 on tutoring for the tests. Do you honestly think it doesn't make a difference? Why then do private school children do disproportionately well on these tests? It's the same for A levels. Children at private schools do much better than state school educated children. But where there are two people, one from private and one from state, with identical exam results, the state school child will do statistically better in their degree result. Unfortunately, you can teach people fairly easily to pass one off exams
. It's honestly no skin off my nose. My children will be fine as they're already nearly through the system. And they're from relatively privileged backgrounds; I would have made sure they passed the eleven plus anyway. But honestly future generations of poor kids will suffer. Not all of them, but enough to question the system. The BBC website has articles at the moment with the statistics that demonstrate that overall, poorer children do worse in a grammar school system. | | | |
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