| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread 13:04 - Jul 10 with 36390 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
I think I’ve been quite lucky so far no?
Well managed England play will defeat the Italians by the odd goal.
Here’s me putting the gauntlet down:
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:31 - Jul 12 with 1150 views | PhilmyRs |
I’ve been really impressed with how we’ve done this tournament, especially the Manager. He’s doing it fantastically well.
My one criticism though is around his in game management/decisions — it feels too robotic. He seems really flexible and adaptable pre-match, springing selection surprises and/or formation tweaks unlike a lot of previous managers which has won us games. I wonder whether this is due to his studious nature and ability to reach logical conclusions when reviewing "the data". When it comes to in game management though, I worry a bit more.
World Cup 2018 it was Sterling for Rashford, even in the semi-final where Sterling was causing them serious problems, it was still the default option. Yesterday — Rice for Henderson was always going to happen despite Rice having one of his best games in an England shirt, you’d hope it was fitness based and Mount for Grealish at some point was always on the cards, a change that should have been made earlier and if he needed to change shape Trippier was always going to be withdrawn, likely for Saka. People latched on to the decision to replace Grealish with Tripper in the semi as evidence of his ruthlessness and tactical nous but I didn’t see it. I didn’t have a problem with the change but the Danes were down to 10 and dead on their feet, I think we would have seen out the game with our without the change but again had no problem with what he did. It’s just yesterday felt similar to Croatia in 2018, we go in at half time ahead, deservedly so and then we just get attacked and can’t find a way out of our own half — can he be creative, can he do something that gets momentum back to us?
He’s said before about also needing to take a look at some of his own decisions as part of a retrospective analysis of the team post tournament and I think based on us looking stronger and more likely to win the game the deeper it went, could he have introduced Grealish earlier? You’d like to think so and could either a Rashford or Sancho been thrown into the mix earlier too, Rashford’s pace stretching them with runs in behind could have been a useful weapon. Was Foden around or injured? I didn’t see the subs bench in the end but his energy and technical qualities could have made a difference too.
Just feel we’ve lost on pens — we weren’t beaten over the 120 mins — which is a great achievement but we kept some quality players back in Rashford, Foden, Sancho and even Grealish only got just over 15 minutes. I think the additional energy could have taken the game to the Italians a bit more. In extra time they seem to have settled for pens, who wouldn’t with that keeper, but we never really went for it and used our attacking options on the bench to scare them. For me it does feel a bit like we’ll die wondering what might of been. |  | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:31 - Jul 12 with 1149 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
On penalties it’s already been clarified that players volunteered. Can’t blame Southgate for that. You can’t insist that a player take a penalty when he doesn’t feel it. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:33 - Jul 12 with 1131 views | Konk |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:20 - Jul 12 by Northolt_Rs |
Sorry but Southgate got everything wrong last night. The formation, the tactics, the starting XI, the subs…. Completely out thought by Mancini. We tried to park the bus from the 2nd minute…. We have a squad bursting with pace and never used it against the two oldest CBs in the competition. Southgate made it easy for Mancini. Despicable of the senior players to leave the final and crucial pen to a 19 year old kid. |
I don't think we tried to park the bus from scoring the first goal. We were looking good until about twenty minutes, gave the ball away 5-6-7 times in a short period of time, and a very good Italian side started to take more and more control. It always seemed to me that we needed to be at our absolute best and hope that Italy weren't quite at theirs, because Italy had looked a better side during the tournament.
We took too long to change things around when we were unable to see any of the ball, and I think we got everything wrong with the penalties - the selected players and lack of game time - but Southgate hasn't got much wrong this tournament, and we far exceeded most people's expectations. Being solid ahead of everything else gave us a platform to win right up until the final, when we came up against excellent opposition, and it wasn't quite enough. |  |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:36 - Jul 12 with 1088 views | gazza1 |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:31 - Jul 12 by PhilmyRs |
I’ve been really impressed with how we’ve done this tournament, especially the Manager. He’s doing it fantastically well.
My one criticism though is around his in game management/decisions — it feels too robotic. He seems really flexible and adaptable pre-match, springing selection surprises and/or formation tweaks unlike a lot of previous managers which has won us games. I wonder whether this is due to his studious nature and ability to reach logical conclusions when reviewing "the data". When it comes to in game management though, I worry a bit more.
World Cup 2018 it was Sterling for Rashford, even in the semi-final where Sterling was causing them serious problems, it was still the default option. Yesterday — Rice for Henderson was always going to happen despite Rice having one of his best games in an England shirt, you’d hope it was fitness based and Mount for Grealish at some point was always on the cards, a change that should have been made earlier and if he needed to change shape Trippier was always going to be withdrawn, likely for Saka. People latched on to the decision to replace Grealish with Tripper in the semi as evidence of his ruthlessness and tactical nous but I didn’t see it. I didn’t have a problem with the change but the Danes were down to 10 and dead on their feet, I think we would have seen out the game with our without the change but again had no problem with what he did. It’s just yesterday felt similar to Croatia in 2018, we go in at half time ahead, deservedly so and then we just get attacked and can’t find a way out of our own half — can he be creative, can he do something that gets momentum back to us?
He’s said before about also needing to take a look at some of his own decisions as part of a retrospective analysis of the team post tournament and I think based on us looking stronger and more likely to win the game the deeper it went, could he have introduced Grealish earlier? You’d like to think so and could either a Rashford or Sancho been thrown into the mix earlier too, Rashford’s pace stretching them with runs in behind could have been a useful weapon. Was Foden around or injured? I didn’t see the subs bench in the end but his energy and technical qualities could have made a difference too.
Just feel we’ve lost on pens — we weren’t beaten over the 120 mins — which is a great achievement but we kept some quality players back in Rashford, Foden, Sancho and even Grealish only got just over 15 minutes. I think the additional energy could have taken the game to the Italians a bit more. In extra time they seem to have settled for pens, who wouldn’t with that keeper, but we never really went for it and used our attacking options on the bench to scare them. For me it does feel a bit like we’ll die wondering what might of been. |
Strange......you say that Southgate has done/doing fantastically well, then write a couple of paragraphs saying where he hasn't done very well at all!!! | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:39 - Jul 12 with 1076 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:36 - Jul 12 by gazza1 |
Strange......you say that Southgate has done/doing fantastically well, then write a couple of paragraphs saying where he hasn't done very well at all!!! |
It’s called a measured response. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:40 - Jul 12 with 1070 views | traininvain |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:31 - Jul 12 by BazzaInTheLoft |
On penalties it’s already been clarified that players volunteered. Can’t blame Southgate for that. You can’t insist that a player take a penalty when he doesn’t feel it. |
I thought Southgate made it clear that he selected the penalty takers based upon their performance in training?
Not that I think he should be dug out for doing so as it’s surely better to have some kind of pre agreed structure instead of deciding at the time.
Foden was injured btw for the person suggesting that he should’ve come on. [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 10:41]
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:41 - Jul 12 with 1054 views | gazza1 |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:39 - Jul 12 by BazzaInTheLoft |
It’s called a measured response. |
OK, it doesn't look too measured to me. Says he's been fantastic then pulls him apart for the rest of the post!!! | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:42 - Jul 12 with 1052 views | 80s_Boy |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:40 - Jul 12 by traininvain |
I thought Southgate made it clear that he selected the penalty takers based upon their performance in training?
Not that I think he should be dug out for doing so as it’s surely better to have some kind of pre agreed structure instead of deciding at the time.
Foden was injured btw for the person suggesting that he should’ve come on. [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 10:41]
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I also think he said last night that his decision for penalty takers was decided in camp and based on training.
Could be wrong but swear that's what I heard. |  | | |
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:43 - Jul 12 with 1051 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:40 - Jul 12 by traininvain |
I thought Southgate made it clear that he selected the penalty takers based upon their performance in training?
Not that I think he should be dug out for doing so as it’s surely better to have some kind of pre agreed structure instead of deciding at the time.
Foden was injured btw for the person suggesting that he should’ve come on. [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 10:41]
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I’d presume that selection comes with those stepping forward in mind. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:46 - Jul 12 with 1024 views | BazzeR |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:00 - Jul 12 by 80s_Boy |
I don't think I can add anything to the myriad observations and comments expressed since last night on here, Twitter or in conversations this morning at work but just some thoughts...
We should be immensely proud of this team and what they achieved. Few gave us hope of reaching the final - not even the bi-annual wave of optimism was taken seriously by many - and although it may not have been the most impressive run to a final ever, we had to overcome physiological issues to beat Germany, gave one of THE great performances of any England side in history against Ukraine (arguably one of the greatest performances in European Championships history by any side) and, of course, had to dig deep against Denmark whilst playing some of the most mature football I have ever seen England play.
Did last night hurt? Absolutely. Were there a few things we got wrong last night? Absolutely. The tactics were bizarre at times when it was obvious Italy were becoming most likely to win, as was the decision to plan subs around the possibilities of penalties.
As for the penalties, it's alright saying 'you should see the players in training to understand why they were nominated' but that's niave. It should have been the most experienced players because you can not replicate the pressures those players were under last night at St George's. Also, and it's an observation rather than an attempt to single out someone to blame, Rashford's penalty was awful and future England players should be told to cut out all nonsense when taking penalties in a shoot out.
Will we come back again? Possibly, though it was worrying how easily Italy managed to make us look very poor using simple passes and equally worrying that some were saying during the week that few, if any Italy players would get into our starting XI. We aren't on the cusp of greatness and have a lot of work to do. Having inflated opinions based on nothing about how good our team are will not help us at all. We have a good/excellent team but we're not great and we need to acknowledge that to become so. |
The tactical nous of Mancini and the Italy players belief won the game deservedly last night.
You may be happy in your bubble to reach a final and fail but I’m not.
A fear of losing and importantly a willingness to be a good loser is not a winning formula in any sport.
I was your “Some” that said only the Keeper would get in the England side and I stand by it.
Which Italy players are your choice ? | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:49 - Jul 12 with 1003 views | daveB |
just feel absolutely broken by it all, what a horrific way to lose. |  | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:50 - Jul 12 with 999 views | traininvain |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:43 - Jul 12 by BazzaInTheLoft |
I’d presume that selection comes with those stepping forward in mind. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57800291
"It is down to me," said Southgate of the penalty misses.
"I decided on the penalty-takers based on what they have done in training.
"Nobody is on their own. We have won together as a team and it is on all of us together to not be able to win this game.
"In terms of penalties, it is my call and it totally rests with me." | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:50 - Jul 12 with 989 views | gazza1 |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:46 - Jul 12 by BazzeR |
The tactical nous of Mancini and the Italy players belief won the game deservedly last night.
You may be happy in your bubble to reach a final and fail but I’m not.
A fear of losing and importantly a willingness to be a good loser is not a winning formula in any sport.
I was your “Some” that said only the Keeper would get in the England side and I stand by it.
Which Italy players are your choice ? |
Your post is 'contrary' - please do not disagree with the majority, posters do not like it and may become offensive  | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:50 - Jul 12 with 999 views | BazzeR |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:39 - Jul 12 by BazzaInTheLoft |
It’s called a measured response. |
I would say it’s covering all bases,a bit like “I hope I’m wrong” responses | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:52 - Jul 12 with 972 views | gazza1 |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:50 - Jul 12 by traininvain |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57800291
"It is down to me," said Southgate of the penalty misses.
"I decided on the penalty-takers based on what they have done in training.
"Nobody is on their own. We have won together as a team and it is on all of us together to not be able to win this game.
"In terms of penalties, it is my call and it totally rests with me." |
Well, if this is fact then Southgate is doing something that I have never experienced and I would suggest not what most Managers would do. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:53 - Jul 12 with 968 views | QPROslo |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 23:45 - Jul 11 by Stanisgod |
Grealish came on too late, Stirling decided to have his worst game of the tournament and then had the front to bottle taking a penalty, leaving a nineteen year old to do it for him.
Other than that we did ok. |
Southgate has said who took the Penalties was down to him. He chose them based on what they did in training. So it's not Sterling's fault. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:56 - Jul 12 with 946 views | 80s_Boy |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:46 - Jul 12 by BazzeR |
The tactical nous of Mancini and the Italy players belief won the game deservedly last night.
You may be happy in your bubble to reach a final and fail but I’m not.
A fear of losing and importantly a willingness to be a good loser is not a winning formula in any sport.
I was your “Some” that said only the Keeper would get in the England side and I stand by it.
Which Italy players are your choice ? |
If Southgate is useless at tactics, you're equally useless at reading because I said, twice, that I was trying to convince myself that I'd be happy just to have reached the final and it was a defence mechanism incase we lost.
Do you think I sat at home last night smiling as we lost?
Also, I don't claim to be one of those weird people who pretend to watch football from all around the world. I couldn't tell you much about those Italian players who ply their trade outside of England and I doubt many could.
What I do know is that that rubbish, by comparison, Italian side are European Champions and you hide your head in the sand and argue all you want that we're better than them and Southgate lost it for us. My thoughts are that we shouldn't consider ourselves better than the rest until we prove we are. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:56 - Jul 12 with 945 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:50 - Jul 12 by traininvain |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57800291
"It is down to me," said Southgate of the penalty misses.
"I decided on the penalty-takers based on what they have done in training.
"Nobody is on their own. We have won together as a team and it is on all of us together to not be able to win this game.
"In terms of penalties, it is my call and it totally rests with me." |
Again, I think it’s goes without saying that that would only include players who put their hand up.
After that it’s up to him I guess. Maybe that’s wrong but why would you insist Saka or Rashford take a pen they didn’t want to. Would explain why Maguire was so high up the list too. [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 11:01]
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:59 - Jul 12 with 921 views | traininvain |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:52 - Jul 12 by gazza1 |
Well, if this is fact then Southgate is doing something that I have never experienced and I would suggest not what most Managers would do. |
Southgate adopted the same approach at the 2018 World Cup and we won on penalties against Colombia.
Germany have been doing it for years. Surely it makes more sense for the manager to select penalty takers based upon practice instead of letting the players decide?
My only minor criticism is that we shouldn’t have ended up in a situation with three of the younger players taking penalties after each other but that’s with the benefit of hindsight. Maybe something to tweak in future. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:03 - Jul 12 with 898 views | BazzeR |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:56 - Jul 12 by 80s_Boy |
If Southgate is useless at tactics, you're equally useless at reading because I said, twice, that I was trying to convince myself that I'd be happy just to have reached the final and it was a defence mechanism incase we lost.
Do you think I sat at home last night smiling as we lost?
Also, I don't claim to be one of those weird people who pretend to watch football from all around the world. I couldn't tell you much about those Italian players who ply their trade outside of England and I doubt many could.
What I do know is that that rubbish, by comparison, Italian side are European Champions and you hide your head in the sand and argue all you want that we're better than them and Southgate lost it for us. My thoughts are that we shouldn't consider ourselves better than the rest until we prove we are. |
“I couldn’t tell you much about those Italian players”
Then why did you mention my comment about only the Keeper gets in? | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:03 - Jul 12 with 893 views | traininvain |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:56 - Jul 12 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Again, I think it’s goes without saying that that would only include players who put their hand up.
After that it’s up to him I guess. Maybe that’s wrong but why would you insist Saka or Rashford take a pen they didn’t want to. Would explain why Maguire was so high up the list too. [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 11:01]
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There is no putting your hand up. Southgate got rid of that in 2018. It’s purely based on Southgate’s list of penalty takers hence why he brought on Rashford and Sancho with seconds to spare before pens.
More proof if needed: https://mobile.twitter.com/JackGrealish/status/1414522271859888132 [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 11:05]
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:04 - Jul 12 with 885 views | 80s_Boy |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:03 - Jul 12 by BazzeR |
“I couldn’t tell you much about those Italian players”
Then why did you mention my comment about only the Keeper gets in? |
Do you believe that you're the only person in England to express an opinion that we're far better than them.
Honestly, get a grip. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:04 - Jul 12 with 878 views | Konk |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 10:59 - Jul 12 by traininvain |
Southgate adopted the same approach at the 2018 World Cup and we won on penalties against Colombia.
Germany have been doing it for years. Surely it makes more sense for the manager to select penalty takers based upon practice instead of letting the players decide?
My only minor criticism is that we shouldn’t have ended up in a situation with three of the younger players taking penalties after each other but that’s with the benefit of hindsight. Maybe something to tweak in future. |
I didn't have any issue with Rashford or Sancho being chosen, but I do think it must be very difficult to go on moments before the final whistle, and then step-up to take a penalty. Didn't feel comfortable having the least experienced player go last either.
With subs being made or being delayed with penalties in mind, rather than maybe bringing on players to actually try and win the game in ET, I'd change it, so anyone whose played during the game is eligible to take a penalty. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:06 - Jul 12 with 854 views | 80s_Boy |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:03 - Jul 12 by traininvain |
There is no putting your hand up. Southgate got rid of that in 2018. It’s purely based on Southgate’s list of penalty takers hence why he brought on Rashford and Sancho with seconds to spare before pens.
More proof if needed: https://mobile.twitter.com/JackGrealish/status/1414522271859888132 [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 11:05]
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Unprofessional from Grealish there.
Understandable but unprofessional nevertheless. | | | |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread (n/t) on 11:07 - Jul 12 with 847 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| England ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ¥ó ®ó §ó ¿ v Italy 🇮🇹 Match Thread on 11:03 - Jul 12 by traininvain |
There is no putting your hand up. Southgate got rid of that in 2018. It’s purely based on Southgate’s list of penalty takers hence why he brought on Rashford and Sancho with seconds to spare before pens.
More proof if needed: https://mobile.twitter.com/JackGrealish/status/1414522271859888132 [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 11:05]
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That’s not my point. I’m talking about players who ruled themselves out not ruled themselves in.
If Saka, Rashford, or Sancho said ‘no thanks gaffer’ I’m certain they wouldn’t be taking one. [Post edited 12 Jul 2021 11:10]
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