| Derby docked another nine points 10:16 - Nov 16 with 20698 views | themodfather |
It took it’s time but the EFL seemingly have taken full action over Derby and the ongoing things there . Won’t help Wycombe but Derby are in big trouble now . |  | | |  |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:25 - Nov 17 with 3304 views | DavieQPR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 08:27 - Nov 17 by londonscottish |
That was the figure bandied about on TalkShite yesterday - there are player debts to clear, HMRC debts and so on before anyone gets the keys to the front door. |
They don't even own the front door. The ground was used as collateral for monies loaned from a US company. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:47 - Nov 17 with 3072 views | CamberleyR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:07 - Nov 17 by Juzzie |
I've never seen Derby as a big club. They've won the title twice in the early 70's and the FA Cup in 1946 and that's about it. It's better than us, yes, but they are hardly a giant.
They and Chesterfield are the only prominent clubs in the county and being the bigger of the two of course they are going to draw on good support. Doesn't make them the big club they think they are though.
Bristol, for example, is three times the population of Derby and bigger than Leeds, Leicester, and even Manchester (metropolitan districts I'm guessing on all of these) but as a town hasn't really taken the world by storm in football terms so population/crowd size doesn't mean anything, expect to anyone who thinks it does which is probably most of them. |
And the fact that they won those two league titles at all is down to one man, Brian Clough. Yes Dave Mackay was manager when they won the second of those titles in 1975 but it was still essentially Clough's team, the team he built.
Almost exactly like Nottingham Forest. Forest had won an FA Cup in the 50s and another when Queen Victoria was still alive but that was it. Brian Clough gave those two clubs the status they have in the English game. |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 13:51 - Nov 17 with 3066 views | QPR_Jim |
| Derby docked another nine points on 09:15 - Nov 17 by BazzaInTheLoft |
True, but a points deduction doesn’t help Wycombe. A financial penalty for the owners (not the club) might even if just a little bit.. |
Well it may have helped Wycombe if the EFL applied the penalty in a timely manner. I think a financial penalty for the owners wouldn't be a bad idea, but if there's a benefit on the field from breaking the rules, I think there also need so be a penalty on the field. Otherwise the fine to the owners just gets wrapped up into the cost of cheating as they are already over spending, which doesn't help make the club sustainable. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:59 - Nov 17 with 3032 views | themodfather |
well the Fair Play rules were meant to level it up, stop teams like manure and chelski running away with it all, but how do clubs close the gap, WITHOUT spending? so i suppose chairmen looked at "loans" and ways of doing deals thru the books the transfer monies to create credit or show good balances?? but it is cooking the books and they copped it,
so many clubs have owed the tax man millions and get far less from the club or "they fold" ? before the FFP rules came in maybe some kind of amnesty or bridge ? the big clubs get bigger and are stretching far ahead, newcastle will need to spend £350m to stay up and compete and likely more on top.
clubs run by corporates or royal families who are basically their "state/country" cannot mean fair play. imo it sucks. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 15:18 - Nov 17 with 2919 views | LazyFan |
| Derby docked another nine points on 10:47 - Nov 17 by daveB |
Yes |
Of course assuming the massive IF, that they will survive at all.
Could they not go into Admin this season, get more points deducted which is meaningless as of course they are relegated anyway.
Best take the hit now, rather than next season and go down another division. I like this as it will take the piddle out of the whole system. |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 15:48 - Nov 17 with 2843 views | francisbowles |
From my limited knowledge this is a settlement, just as our case was.
The original sanction would have been much worse, in our case a higher fine, in theirs, up to 12 points for each breaking of Profit and Sustainability rules as well as the administration penalty. Possible 58 points!
Northern, please correct me if this is inaccurate. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 15:51 - Nov 17 with 2839 views | Northernr |
| Derby docked another nine points on 15:48 - Nov 17 by francisbowles |
From my limited knowledge this is a settlement, just as our case was.
The original sanction would have been much worse, in our case a higher fine, in theirs, up to 12 points for each breaking of Profit and Sustainability rules as well as the administration penalty. Possible 58 points!
Northern, please correct me if this is inaccurate. |
That's as I see it as well. Frankly ridiculous. Do we have rules or don't we? What's there to negotiate about? |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 15:59 - Nov 17 with 2807 views | SimonD |
| Derby docked another nine points on 15:51 - Nov 17 by Northernr |
That's as I see it as well. Frankly ridiculous. Do we have rules or don't we? What's there to negotiate about? |
As I read the report they should be getting the following points deductions
3 yrs to 16/17 - exceeded upper threshold by £7.76m - 6 points
3 yrs to 17/18 - under upper threshold
3 yrs to 18/19 - exceeded upper threshold by £11.2m - 8 points
4 yrs to 20/21 - exceeded upper threshold by £1.96m - 3 points
Therefore 17 points.
I guess the lower offer is just stop this dragging on and on like our case did. | | | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 16:07 - Nov 17 with 2778 views | Northernr |
| Derby docked another nine points on 15:59 - Nov 17 by SimonD |
As I read the report they should be getting the following points deductions
3 yrs to 16/17 - exceeded upper threshold by £7.76m - 6 points
3 yrs to 17/18 - under upper threshold
3 yrs to 18/19 - exceeded upper threshold by £11.2m - 8 points
4 yrs to 20/21 - exceeded upper threshold by £1.96m - 3 points
Therefore 17 points.
I guess the lower offer is just stop this dragging on and on like our case did. |
That's what I mean though. Why should things drag on? That's the rule, you broke it, that's how many points. This negotiated settlement bullsht... | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:10 - Nov 17 with 2766 views | SimonD |
It is exactly what we did though and got a £42m fine down to £17m with 10 years to pay. I think they learnt a lot form that. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:13 - Nov 17 with 2749 views | WatfordR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:51 - Nov 17 by QPR_Jim |
Well it may have helped Wycombe if the EFL applied the penalty in a timely manner. I think a financial penalty for the owners wouldn't be a bad idea, but if there's a benefit on the field from breaking the rules, I think there also need so be a penalty on the field. Otherwise the fine to the owners just gets wrapped up into the cost of cheating as they are already over spending, which doesn't help make the club sustainable. |
What I don't like is these points penalties being dropped in all over the place during a season.
Our case established that it's the EFL's competition, so they can make up whatever rules they like. So it ought to be perfectly feasible to insist that clubs have their accounts complete and reported for a particular period by a particular time, why not let's say 30 April each year. Then the accounts can be checked for rule breaches by, why not let's say 31 May, any resulting fines or points reductions imposed are for the following season, and away we go. If you don't complete your accounts by the deadline, you're assumed to be in breach to the maximum and fined the maximum fines or points, to be applied the following season.
If those restrictions are too onerous for League One and Two clubs, then ease the deadlines and fines and so on for them. The big problems are in the main confined to Championship clubs.
When for example will the Reading points deduction drop? Are the EFL waiting for the least controversial option of when they're safe from relegation and not going into the play offs? Why shouldn't a club struggling to stay up, or battling for promotion, know who they've got to battle past to achieve their season's ambitions? Why shouldn't a club looking to maintain a promotion push know, before the transfer window "slams shut" in January, that three or four or five or six of their competitors are going to have points deductions before the end of the season? Shouldn't that info be freely available to them before they decide whether to play inflated January prices to strengthen their chances of getting up, particularly if, unlike their competitors, they are doing everything they can to stay within the FFP rules?
A lot of people on about poor old Wycombe here, but imagine the impact on our club of finishing seventh, and losing a play off spot to a club who haven't had points deducted, as they ought to have, because they've drawn out negotiations with the EFL about what their punishment is going to be.
The current process of punishment is ludicrous. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:15 - Nov 17 with 2737 views | sprocket |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:07 - Nov 17 by Northernr |
That's what I mean though. Why should things drag on? That's the rule, you broke it, that's how many points. This negotiated settlement bullsht... |
Probably down to Nick De Marcos negotiating ability... | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:45 - Nov 17 with 2663 views | Northernr |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:10 - Nov 17 by SimonD |
It is exactly what we did though and got a £42m fine down to £17m with 10 years to pay. I think they learnt a lot form that. |
As I've said all the way through, we broke that law deliberately and flagrantly, we deserved our punishment. The only caveat is the rule as written at that point was so daft they then changed it, so I can see why you'd try your hand getting punished under the new rules rather than the old ones, but I still don't think we had much of a defence - we knew exactly what we were doing. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 17:03 - Nov 17 with 2598 views | DWQPR |
According to the Sun it seems that Gibson is looking to sue Derby for £45million as ‘Boro were the the that lost out in the play offs the last time Derby got there and that Wycombe are in for £6million. Looking at the Derby message board they think that in reply they have a good case against us and some other team for flagrant cheating of the rules. Total load of bolloxio all round. Really cannot see Derby surviving this season. Who would pay for a football club in League One with footballing debts to settle, HMRC debts to settle, no real value to the playing staff (assuming that there is a fire sale in January of anything that’s worth anything to sell), no ground and probably not even a crusty old hotdog left. | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 17:25 - Nov 17 with 2553 views | Juzzie |
| Derby docked another nine points on 17:03 - Nov 17 by DWQPR |
According to the Sun it seems that Gibson is looking to sue Derby for £45million as ‘Boro were the the that lost out in the play offs the last time Derby got there and that Wycombe are in for £6million. Looking at the Derby message board they think that in reply they have a good case against us and some other team for flagrant cheating of the rules. Total load of bolloxio all round. Really cannot see Derby surviving this season. Who would pay for a football club in League One with footballing debts to settle, HMRC debts to settle, no real value to the playing staff (assuming that there is a fire sale in January of anything that’s worth anything to sell), no ground and probably not even a crusty old hotdog left. |
Derby trying to sue us for them losing the play off final? WTF? Whoever their opponent was that day would mean a tough game regardless. They failed to win the game. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 17:29 - Nov 17 with 2525 views | SimplyNico |
In any event, what is the cause of action? Breach of contract? The limitation period is six years. Out of time if so. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 18:01 - Nov 17 with 2452 views | supahoopsa |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:13 - Nov 17 by WatfordR |
What I don't like is these points penalties being dropped in all over the place during a season.
Our case established that it's the EFL's competition, so they can make up whatever rules they like. So it ought to be perfectly feasible to insist that clubs have their accounts complete and reported for a particular period by a particular time, why not let's say 30 April each year. Then the accounts can be checked for rule breaches by, why not let's say 31 May, any resulting fines or points reductions imposed are for the following season, and away we go. If you don't complete your accounts by the deadline, you're assumed to be in breach to the maximum and fined the maximum fines or points, to be applied the following season.
If those restrictions are too onerous for League One and Two clubs, then ease the deadlines and fines and so on for them. The big problems are in the main confined to Championship clubs.
When for example will the Reading points deduction drop? Are the EFL waiting for the least controversial option of when they're safe from relegation and not going into the play offs? Why shouldn't a club struggling to stay up, or battling for promotion, know who they've got to battle past to achieve their season's ambitions? Why shouldn't a club looking to maintain a promotion push know, before the transfer window "slams shut" in January, that three or four or five or six of their competitors are going to have points deductions before the end of the season? Shouldn't that info be freely available to them before they decide whether to play inflated January prices to strengthen their chances of getting up, particularly if, unlike their competitors, they are doing everything they can to stay within the FFP rules?
A lot of people on about poor old Wycombe here, but imagine the impact on our club of finishing seventh, and losing a play off spot to a club who haven't had points deducted, as they ought to have, because they've drawn out negotiations with the EFL about what their punishment is going to be.
The current process of punishment is ludicrous. |
Far, far too sensible |  |
| Blue & White hooped blood runs through the family |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 18:20 - Nov 17 with 2409 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Derby docked another nine points on 17:03 - Nov 17 by DWQPR |
According to the Sun it seems that Gibson is looking to sue Derby for £45million as ‘Boro were the the that lost out in the play offs the last time Derby got there and that Wycombe are in for £6million. Looking at the Derby message board they think that in reply they have a good case against us and some other team for flagrant cheating of the rules. Total load of bolloxio all round. Really cannot see Derby surviving this season. Who would pay for a football club in League One with footballing debts to settle, HMRC debts to settle, no real value to the playing staff (assuming that there is a fire sale in January of anything that’s worth anything to sell), no ground and probably not even a crusty old hotdog left. |
Give it to the fans for a £1.
Let them have a go I say. See Portsmouth. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 19:04 - Nov 17 with 2341 views | DWQPR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 18:20 - Nov 17 by BazzaInTheLoft |
Give it to the fans for a £1.
Let them have a go I say. See Portsmouth. |
Give it to the fans for £1 but they’ll still have to cover the footballing and HMRC debts. And then there is the small matter of either repurchase of the stadium (anything under £80million and I’m sure the EFL will come back sniffing), and of course trying to put a squad together that could be even half competitive next year in League One. | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 19:23 - Nov 17 with 2300 views | QPR_Jim |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:13 - Nov 17 by WatfordR |
What I don't like is these points penalties being dropped in all over the place during a season.
Our case established that it's the EFL's competition, so they can make up whatever rules they like. So it ought to be perfectly feasible to insist that clubs have their accounts complete and reported for a particular period by a particular time, why not let's say 30 April each year. Then the accounts can be checked for rule breaches by, why not let's say 31 May, any resulting fines or points reductions imposed are for the following season, and away we go. If you don't complete your accounts by the deadline, you're assumed to be in breach to the maximum and fined the maximum fines or points, to be applied the following season.
If those restrictions are too onerous for League One and Two clubs, then ease the deadlines and fines and so on for them. The big problems are in the main confined to Championship clubs.
When for example will the Reading points deduction drop? Are the EFL waiting for the least controversial option of when they're safe from relegation and not going into the play offs? Why shouldn't a club struggling to stay up, or battling for promotion, know who they've got to battle past to achieve their season's ambitions? Why shouldn't a club looking to maintain a promotion push know, before the transfer window "slams shut" in January, that three or four or five or six of their competitors are going to have points deductions before the end of the season? Shouldn't that info be freely available to them before they decide whether to play inflated January prices to strengthen their chances of getting up, particularly if, unlike their competitors, they are doing everything they can to stay within the FFP rules?
A lot of people on about poor old Wycombe here, but imagine the impact on our club of finishing seventh, and losing a play off spot to a club who haven't had points deducted, as they ought to have, because they've drawn out negotiations with the EFL about what their punishment is going to be.
The current process of punishment is ludicrous. |
It's a fair point and I don't see any reason why your suggestion wouldn't work. As you say, if people fail to comply with filing, assume they're cheating and fine them. They'll soon get everything sent over. If it doesn't follow the set out accounting rules fine them the maximum.
The only downfall in the plan is that it would require a competent EFL. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:58 - Nov 20 with 1974 views | SimonD |
The administrators for Derby's holding company have just issued a statement of affairs. They have a deficiency of £153million assuming they can realise all of their assets.
The £26m they owe HMRC is just for PAYE / NIC. They owe a further £554k VAT.
All Covid's fault of course [Post edited 20 Nov 2021 12:03]
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| Derby docked another nine points on 12:08 - Nov 21 with 1737 views | stowmarketrange |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:58 - Nov 20 by SimonD |
The administrators for Derby's holding company have just issued a statement of affairs. They have a deficiency of £153million assuming they can realise all of their assets.
The £26m they owe HMRC is just for PAYE / NIC. They owe a further £554k VAT.
All Covid's fault of course [Post edited 20 Nov 2021 12:03]
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Quite ironic that their shirts have 32 RED on them with the words underneath “Know your limits.”
I guess they didn’t listen to that advice then.
Also at least one of them still has a poppy on it,even though they didn’t have them on 2 weeks ago.Have they run out of shirts too? [Post edited 21 Nov 2021 13:18]
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| Derby docked another nine points on 13:42 - Nov 21 with 1651 views | Hayesender |
Just noticed they're currently beating Bournemouth 3-2. Will be a tough game next week |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 13:49 - Nov 21 with 1621 views | Match82 |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:42 - Nov 21 by Hayesender |
Just noticed they're currently beating Bournemouth 3-2. Will be a tough game next week |
Whatever your feelings on whether this is deserved, have to give credit to the players for not downing tools |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 14:01 - Nov 21 with 1579 views | Antti_Heinola |
Good game, that. Interesting note at the end, Sky raced to get hold of a couple of Derby players, and they were the same when Forest drew with us - all hands to the pump to grab Colback.
For our win on Friday, no rush, spoke to Willock and Dickie after a fashion, not really bothered.
Hope we smash them at their place next week. |  |
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