| Derby docked another nine points 10:16 - Nov 16 with 20704 views | themodfather |
It took it’s time but the EFL seemingly have taken full action over Derby and the ongoing things there . Won’t help Wycombe but Derby are in big trouble now . |  | | |  |
| Derby docked another nine points on 14:00 - Dec 2 with 2962 views | DWQPR |
HMRC will not waive any tax due even if it meant that company involved goes into liquidation and they get nothing. The danger is that they then set the precedent for other businesses to renage on their tax bills and then requesting a discount. That would lead to much greater losses in tax revenue than the £29million owed by Derby. Ultimately HMRC have a responsibility to the tax payer to get as much tax income as they can. | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 14:05 - Dec 2 with 2942 views | elnombre |
In principle, a director IS personally liable if he continues to trade when there is no reasonable prospect of avoiding insolvency. Whether 'reasonable' includes waiting for a rich American investor to just fall out of the sky or blind-eying £28M of HMRC debts alone while continuing to make a £1.5M per month loss...
If Derby do not pay non-footballing creditors at least 25p in the £1, they will be liable to a further 15 point deduction; hopefully they will still be around to enjoy that next season - hardly a punishment if just added this.
I'd like to know over what length of time HMRC allowed £28M of debt to accrue..?!? | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 14:13 - Dec 2 with 2909 views | TGRRRSSS |
Does Morris still own Pride Park and all the other real estate etc that is "Derby related but not owned in any way by the club or the businesses based on the club?
If I am getting this right, essentially all they are offering is the debts and the business of the football club at large but no real tangible assets such as the ground or training ground (surely on a lease then) and Morris has taken all the bits he fancies?
How does this work with HMRC and their £28M?
And how did they allow that debt to run up you wonder as said above???...
Presumably there is a monthly cost of the business they are trying to get a buyer for of at least say "£2m a month going outwards minimum - and I dare say more as even if they dont own the ground they are liable for all costs of the ground and training ground etc. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 14:32 - Dec 2 with 2848 views | terryb |
I too, would love to know for how long tax was unpaid.
I read somewhere that HMRC started taking action to wind up DCFC in January 2020 for unpaid PAYE/NIC. However, like everything else, this would have been put on ice in March 2020 due to Covid.
Personally, I regard it as theft or fraud that you take the employees contributions & then use that money for other purposes. I'm not too concerned with the senior players (although they have also been duped), but as no NIC payments have been received, Mrs. Bloggs in the canteen & her husband as kit manager will have no record of contributions for the period not paid. This would affect the payments they receive for the state pension when that is due. Members of the under 23's may not have any record of being employed either.
I very much doubt that this outstanding figure includes VAT, as that is a seperate section in HMRC & they never seem to communicate with each other! | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:33 - Dec 2 with 2676 views | stowmarketrange |
| Derby docked another nine points on 14:32 - Dec 2 by terryb |
I too, would love to know for how long tax was unpaid.
I read somewhere that HMRC started taking action to wind up DCFC in January 2020 for unpaid PAYE/NIC. However, like everything else, this would have been put on ice in March 2020 due to Covid.
Personally, I regard it as theft or fraud that you take the employees contributions & then use that money for other purposes. I'm not too concerned with the senior players (although they have also been duped), but as no NIC payments have been received, Mrs. Bloggs in the canteen & her husband as kit manager will have no record of contributions for the period not paid. This would affect the payments they receive for the state pension when that is due. Members of the under 23's may not have any record of being employed either.
I very much doubt that this outstanding figure includes VAT, as that is a seperate section in HMRC & they never seem to communicate with each other! |
I found out in the 3 months that I spent as a self employed hgv driver that the vat people couldn’t be messed about with as much as HMRC could.And they wanted their money virtually straight away.
Other people who deal with them on a more regular basis than I did might know more about it. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:36 - Dec 2 with 2649 views | bosh67 |
It would certainly be a tragedy if a club like Derby did have to be liquidated. Surely this new US investor will step in? |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 17:09 - Dec 2 with 2562 views | DWQPR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 16:36 - Dec 2 by bosh67 |
It would certainly be a tragedy if a club like Derby did have to be liquidated. Surely this new US investor will step in? |
Would you if you was him with the knowledge that he isn’t buying any real estate whatsoever, a squad made up of kids, a few half decent players and a load of journeymen on short term contracts, a manager on £90k a week, a huge tax bill, footballing debts and to pay other creditors at least 25p in the £. Now what part of this business would be attractive to you if you had the funds that this American bloke has? | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 17:10 - Dec 2 with 2558 views | themodfather |
HMRC jump all over any of us if we are late paying, heavy fines etc why do clubs seem to be treated differently? if derby owe £29m back tax, bet they don;t pay that in full!
derby have a good squad on one assumes big wages, how long before they have to start the cull? | | | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 17:14 - Dec 2 with 2522 views | DWQPR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 17:10 - Dec 2 by themodfather |
HMRC jump all over any of us if we are late paying, heavy fines etc why do clubs seem to be treated differently? if derby owe £29m back tax, bet they don;t pay that in full!
derby have a good squad on one assumes big wages, how long before they have to start the cull? |
HMRC chased Bolton for the full amount and that was only £1.2million. The first cheque written by the new owner was to HMRC for £1.2million. They t let Derby off the hook. Expect a winding up petition sooner rather than later as they’ll want what they can get out of the bones that are left. After footballing debts they are next in the food chain. The only negotiation that they might enter into is with a new owner over a payment plan but they will expect every penny to be paid. | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 18:23 - Dec 2 with 2398 views | SimonD |
Getting to grips with Derby's figures is quite involved.
The holding company is called Sevco 5112 Ltd. Under that umbrella is:
The Derby County Football Club Ltd - The actual football club
Club DCFC Ltd - Event, catering and retail activities
Stadia DCFC Ltd - Sponsorship and broadcast activities
Derby County FC Academy Ltd - Their academy
Pride Park is owned by a totally separate company called Gellaw Newco 202 Ltd which is outside of this group but owned by Mel Morris.
FFP uses at the accounts of the holding company. I've not had time to look at them all so can only comment on The Derby County Football Club Ltd which is the biggest entity by far in randomly answering some of the questions in this thread.
Derby do still own their training ground at Moor Farm. The latest £1.25m loan from MSD Holding is secured against this. It is valued at £7.5m. It is possible that the terms of this loan will allow them to borrow up to that figure to keep going, but I can't see HMRC allowing the only asset to be diminished that way.
Derby owe £554k VAT. That is not an unreasonable amount. As we entered lockdown, HMRC allowed business to defer paying one quarter's VAT, which is now being paid in equally monthly payments over the current financial year.
I'm not aware of a similar deferment for PAYE / NIC. As Terry said, HMRC issued a winding up order for unpaid tax in Jan 2020, so this has been building up for some time.
It also looks like there is the best part of £250k in deferred wages and coming up to £300k unpaid pension contributions.
Derby owe £8.3m in player registration fees. I've not seen anything which discloses how that is broken down.
And plenty more before you get to the depressing long list of unsecured creditors. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 18:52 - Dec 2 with 2326 views | kensalriser |
| Derby docked another nine points on 17:14 - Dec 2 by DWQPR |
HMRC chased Bolton for the full amount and that was only £1.2million. The first cheque written by the new owner was to HMRC for £1.2million. They t let Derby off the hook. Expect a winding up petition sooner rather than later as they’ll want what they can get out of the bones that are left. After footballing debts they are next in the food chain. The only negotiation that they might enter into is with a new owner over a payment plan but they will expect every penny to be paid. |
HMRC is not next in line. All non-football creditors are treated equally. If the indebted companies are wound up, as they almost certainly will be at some point, HMRC will have to accept the same pence in the pound as every other creditor. If a new owner buys assets out of administration they won't owe HMRC a thing. |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 19:05 - Dec 2 with 2297 views | SimonD |
| Derby docked another nine points on 18:52 - Dec 2 by kensalriser |
HMRC is not next in line. All non-football creditors are treated equally. If the indebted companies are wound up, as they almost certainly will be at some point, HMRC will have to accept the same pence in the pound as every other creditor. If a new owner buys assets out of administration they won't owe HMRC a thing. |
HMRC are a secondary preferential creditor for VAT, PAYE and NIC. This was changed on 1st Dec 2020. [Post edited 2 Dec 2021 19:29]
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| Derby docked another nine points on 19:21 - Dec 2 with 2260 views | SimplyNico |
| Derby docked another nine points on 19:05 - Dec 2 by SimonD |
HMRC are a secondary preferential creditor for VAT, PAYE and NIC. This was changed on 1st Dec 2020. [Post edited 2 Dec 2021 19:29]
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This.
I have had the pleasure of seeing what happens when HMRC are bumped by a club. They take it personally and they do not act in the way that a rational business person would in compromising a debt. Whilst they will assist with time to pay arrangements where they are told in advance of a problem, if the problem is just dumped in their lap, they will take all action open to them, including insolvency.
It will be an interesting ride. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 19:58 - Dec 2 with 2189 views | kensalriser |
| Derby docked another nine points on 19:05 - Dec 2 by SimonD |
HMRC are a secondary preferential creditor for VAT, PAYE and NIC. This was changed on 1st Dec 2020. [Post edited 2 Dec 2021 19:29]
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Thanks, was not aware of that recent change in the law. | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 11:56 - Dec 7 with 1577 views | Juzzie |
Yeah, because if they had played someone else in the final Derby would have been guaranteed to have won  |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:03 - Dec 7 with 1539 views | Mick_S |
Gaz and Rio are going to fix it!  |  |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
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| (No subject) (n/t) on 18:41 - Dec 7 with 1261 views | DWQPR |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 18:54 - Dec 7 with 1232 views | francisbowles |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:56 - Dec 7 by Juzzie |
Yeah, because if they had played someone else in the final Derby would have been guaranteed to have won |
Not sure what they think they can sue for but most civil claims would be out of time under the statute of limitations.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limitation_Act_1980 | | | |
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