| Derby docked another nine points 10:16 - Nov 16 with 20703 views | themodfather |
It took it’s time but the EFL seemingly have taken full action over Derby and the ongoing things there . Won’t help Wycombe but Derby are in big trouble now . |  | | |  |
| Derby docked another nine points on 14:56 - Nov 26 with 2995 views | TacticalR |
'The situation would have been even worse without a £1.25m loan from investment company MSD, who were already owed £20m by the club and will have a significant say in their exit from administration.
The administrators had previously stated they needed to take loans out to allow the club to fulfil their fixtures.'
Derby County lose £1.2m in first eight weeks in administration
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59414788 |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 16:08 - Nov 26 with 2806 views | LythamR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 14:56 - Nov 26 by TacticalR |
'The situation would have been even worse without a £1.25m loan from investment company MSD, who were already owed £20m by the club and will have a significant say in their exit from administration.
The administrators had previously stated they needed to take loans out to allow the club to fulfil their fixtures.'
Derby County lose £1.2m in first eight weeks in administration
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59414788 |
Thats less than we lose, didn't Hoos say that we are losing approx 1M per month |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 09:43 - Dec 2 with 2217 views | terryb |
Now this would very much be Rangers!
Liquidation would cost us & Blackburn 3 points, Fulham, WBA & Coventry 1 point & Bournemouth none. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 10:18 - Dec 2 with 2111 views | E17hoop |
Looks like a PR piece for the new buyers, putting pressure on HMRC (or 'the taxman' as the Mail insist on calling them) to reduce the commitment. |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 10:51 - Dec 2 with 2037 views | daveB |
are their fans going to blame the EFL for this as well |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:06 - Dec 2 with 1973 views | Rs_Holy |
I thought they had a guy lined up to buy the club?... mentioned it on Sky comms during Mondays game. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:34 - Dec 2 with 1893 views | slmrstid |
Football fan or not, I don't want to see huge sums of taxpayer money being written off because of irresponsible football club owners, and if it means it sends Derby under (or any other club for that matter) then so be it.
Failing that, place the debt onto Mel Morris personally (although I'm sure the corporate structures are done in such a way that would be impossible) and pursue it there. |  | | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 11:44 - Dec 2 with 1848 views | WatfordR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:34 - Dec 2 by slmrstid |
Football fan or not, I don't want to see huge sums of taxpayer money being written off because of irresponsible football club owners, and if it means it sends Derby under (or any other club for that matter) then so be it.
Failing that, place the debt onto Mel Morris personally (although I'm sure the corporate structures are done in such a way that would be impossible) and pursue it there. |
Well if they are allowed to have tax they owe "written off" so they can continue to trade, I'll be very interested to point that out to HMRC come my next tax bill. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:47 - Dec 2 with 1836 views | Esox_Lucius |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:44 - Dec 2 by WatfordR |
Well if they are allowed to have tax they owe "written off" so they can continue to trade, I'll be very interested to point that out to HMRC come my next tax bill. |
Also Bury and Rangers might feel a little aggrieved if that were to happen. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 12:02 - Dec 2 with 1791 views | Phildo |
| Derby docked another nine points on 10:51 - Dec 2 by daveB |
are their fans going to blame the EFL for this as well |
'Gibsons HMRC' |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:07 - Dec 2 with 1761 views | EastR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 10:51 - Dec 2 by daveB |
are their fans going to blame the EFL for this as well |
They don't need to worry, Mel's got them all on strings | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 12:21 - Dec 2 with 1706 views | DWQPR |
Sounds like the prospective new buyer is stalling based on the fact that he would, if he was stupid enough to buy the club that he would fall responsible for the tax bill. Well as a new owner he would be. And what else would he have bought other than the footballing liabilities to other clubs for transfer fees still owed, no stadium, a squad made up of youth players, old journeyman defenders, a few reasonable players and Ravel! It's not something that the investors in Dragon's Den would describe as 'lucrative'. The club is shot, lets just hope that they are allowed to complete the season just for the benefit of us keeping the points we got. Or to add fairness to the situation to award three points for every game to the opposition for the games left and a three nil walkover. But Clive in his pre-match assessment is right. It shouldn't be the club that is responsible for this tax bill but Morris or any other owner. He has stolen from the general public and he has failed to provide NIC payments for employees and should at the very least be barred from owning any business of any description ever again. And why HMRC are not taking legal action against him as a director of a business that has obviously traded whilst insolvent is beyond me. | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 12:24 - Dec 2 with 1685 views | PinnerPaul |
| Derby docked another nine points on 11:34 - Dec 2 by slmrstid |
Football fan or not, I don't want to see huge sums of taxpayer money being written off because of irresponsible football club owners, and if it means it sends Derby under (or any other club for that matter) then so be it.
Failing that, place the debt onto Mel Morris personally (although I'm sure the corporate structures are done in such a way that would be impossible) and pursue it there. |
Agree.
Not forgetting of course that the players and most of the coaching staff will be on 40% tax, so in effect Derby, and others, have been getting away with paying only 60% of the wage bill for ages.
No idea if that figure includes unpaid VAT or not though? | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:28 - Dec 2 with 1667 views | danehoop |
I suspect that last point will depend on whether the debt is repaid. It wasn't previously clear how the club had maintained their going concern status until last month when the full scale and nature of Derby's actual financial position were finally disclosed. Starting point for HRMC investigation may come from that if its felt that what has been declared is materially variant from what has been filed with them and whether any accounting practices used were either fraudulent or illegal.
Equally, can't see HMRC waiving any debt due. The chance of getting any kind of settlement from what is clearly a structurally loss making concern will be remote. |  |
| Never knowingly understood |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 12:45 - Dec 2 with 1613 views | kensalriser |
As far as I understand it, football clubs in administration are obliged to settle all football debts in order to retain league status. All other debts are ranked equal (pari passu). HMRC, which used to have preferential status until the early 2000s, has legally challenged and lost the football debts rule twice.
Unless there are other special laws, I see no reason why a buyer would not be able to acquire Derby’s assets and retain football legal status without having to pay any debts in full except football debts, but that would be a negotiation between the prospective buyer and the administrators. Under limited liability law directors/shareholders of the insolvent companies would not be personally responsible. |  |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 13:07 - Dec 2 with 1529 views | WatfordR |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:45 - Dec 2 by kensalriser |
As far as I understand it, football clubs in administration are obliged to settle all football debts in order to retain league status. All other debts are ranked equal (pari passu). HMRC, which used to have preferential status until the early 2000s, has legally challenged and lost the football debts rule twice.
Unless there are other special laws, I see no reason why a buyer would not be able to acquire Derby’s assets and retain football legal status without having to pay any debts in full except football debts, but that would be a negotiation between the prospective buyer and the administrators. Under limited liability law directors/shareholders of the insolvent companies would not be personally responsible. |
Not my area of expertise, but...
Presuming football debts are settled, and Derby's assets amount to players plus league membership, could these assets be sold to a new buyer, effectively leaving the current owning company ready to be wound up, owing everyone else? | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:16 - Dec 2 with 1509 views | kensalriser |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:07 - Dec 2 by WatfordR |
Not my area of expertise, but...
Presuming football debts are settled, and Derby's assets amount to players plus league membership, could these assets be sold to a new buyer, effectively leaving the current owning company ready to be wound up, owing everyone else? |
Pretty much, yes. The administrator would use the proceeds of the sale to make a distribution to the creditors. | |
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| Derby docked another nine points on 13:20 - Dec 2 with 1499 views | slmrstid |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:07 - Dec 2 by WatfordR |
Not my area of expertise, but...
Presuming football debts are settled, and Derby's assets amount to players plus league membership, could these assets be sold to a new buyer, effectively leaving the current owning company ready to be wound up, owing everyone else? |
Nor mine, but I believe that could be done and then the funds that have come in to sell those assets are used to pay the remaining creditors off as far as possible.
To give the simplest example...
A company goes bust with £10m in assets, £20m in liabilities (so insolvent by £10m).
The £10m assets are sold to a new buyer, at that value (again for simplicity sake!) so the "shell" is now left with £10m in cash and £20m in liabilities.
The creditors will effectively therefore end up with 50p in the pound, as that is all that is left to pay them.
Its a very simplistic example, but thats it in a nutshell as far as I understand it. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:21 - Dec 2 with 1488 views | slmrstid |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:24 - Dec 2 by PinnerPaul |
Agree.
Not forgetting of course that the players and most of the coaching staff will be on 40% tax, so in effect Derby, and others, have been getting away with paying only 60% of the wage bill for ages.
No idea if that figure includes unpaid VAT or not though? |
"Not forgetting of course that the players and most of the coaching staff will be on 40% tax, so in effect Derby, and others, have been getting away with paying only 60% of the wage bill for ages."
Agree, so in effect the taxpayer has been funding Derby's wage bill.
I would imagine it does include VAT as well, if they're not paying their PAYE bills I'd be amazed if they're paying the VAT ones! | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:22 - Dec 2 with 1478 views | slmrstid |
| Derby docked another nine points on 12:45 - Dec 2 by kensalriser |
As far as I understand it, football clubs in administration are obliged to settle all football debts in order to retain league status. All other debts are ranked equal (pari passu). HMRC, which used to have preferential status until the early 2000s, has legally challenged and lost the football debts rule twice.
Unless there are other special laws, I see no reason why a buyer would not be able to acquire Derby’s assets and retain football legal status without having to pay any debts in full except football debts, but that would be a negotiation between the prospective buyer and the administrators. Under limited liability law directors/shareholders of the insolvent companies would not be personally responsible. |
"Under limited liability law directors/shareholders of the insolvent companies would not be personally responsible."
Agree here too, but I'm sure I've read before HMRC has the ability to pursue directors of a company, but maybe it has to be proven fraudulent first. I'm not a tax expert! | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:28 - Dec 2 with 1444 views | Juzzie |
When I sold my flat in January I had to pay Capital Gains Tax. That was my responsibility, not the 'flat'. The new owner doesn't have to pay it.
So yes, why should the burden be on the club, Morris should pay as he owned the club.
If HMRC do waive any of it, I may contact them about my CGT and why I had to pay and he/the club didn't. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:29 - Dec 2 with 1435 views | TGRRRSSS |
The adminastrators costs will be building up nicely as well.
Still paying Rooney his £90K per week wages, as they believe his profile is crucial to getting a buyer?
Or is it more likely they simply cannot afford to release him?
IN any other business he'd have gone long ago on wages like that.... but the football debts means his contract would probably have to be paid up either way I guess. |  | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:34 - Dec 2 with 1377 views | Lanhoop |
HMRC will have to make a judgement on how best to recover the maximum amount it can from the debt. It might settle on a lower amount on the basis of something is better than nothing. It won't waive all of it as it would be better then to insist on the businesses (and I assume DCFC is a web of companies) who owe the money going into liquidation on that basis. To encourage everyone else at least. | | | |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:39 - Dec 2 with 1351 views | TGRRRSSS |
| Derby docked another nine points on 13:28 - Dec 2 by Juzzie |
When I sold my flat in January I had to pay Capital Gains Tax. That was my responsibility, not the 'flat'. The new owner doesn't have to pay it.
So yes, why should the burden be on the club, Morris should pay as he owned the club.
If HMRC do waive any of it, I may contact them about my CGT and why I had to pay and he/the club didn't. |
He/sHE/They did have to pay stamp duty though.
I broadley agree with you, but kind of why they went into admin was to protect Morris, and in fact make HIM a creditor, it's always been the problem since the skyrocketing fees that debts could be saddles on a business rather than a person with a stake in the business, depending how it's owned I think.
Is Derby a PLC, or were they privately owned?
Never quite got the hand of how it works, but generally it seems the wealthier you are the less you'll be punished when your business fails - and if you own a football club (at this level you should be fine - unless your Mark Goldberg I think.
The last owner who actually seemed to suffer personally (financially speaking) from owning a club and also paying some kind of price, mind you he did get done by Noades I think.
Any experts? | | | |
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