| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis 16:09 - May 8 with 6190 views | Northernr |
As QPR finish 15th in the Championship for the second year running while posting another £20m+ loss in their latest set of accounts, we turned to our finance expert Simon Dorset to examine where the owners are spending their money and what they’re getting in return.
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/ |  | | |  |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 16:57 - May 8 with 6006 views | dmm |
Thank you Simon for your work in producing such a helpful piece. I'm not great at reading accounts but even I can see that these figures are a concern. It seems we're not only running to stand still, but also having to run a bit faster with each passing year.
Will there not be a point reached when this all becomes unsustainable? |  | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 17:14 - May 8 with 5915 views | TwoHalves |
Who ate all the pie charts? I think we should be told. |  | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 17:47 - May 8 with 5813 views | NewYorkRanger |
Thanks for publishing this - very interesting. It's well known that the owners are funding the running of the club and without them we are screwed. But, as they own the majority of the club's debt, it's unlikely that there will be a crisis any time soon.
But what I don't understand is WHY they do it? What's in the business model that isn't obvious? Nearly £200m invested to stay in the bottom half of the championship makes zero sense to me.
Does anyone have any insight or even guesses as to why they continue to fund the club in this way? |  |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 19:43 - May 8 with 5549 views | PunteR |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 17:47 - May 8 by NewYorkRanger |
Thanks for publishing this - very interesting. It's well known that the owners are funding the running of the club and without them we are screwed. But, as they own the majority of the club's debt, it's unlikely that there will be a crisis any time soon.
But what I don't understand is WHY they do it? What's in the business model that isn't obvious? Nearly £200m invested to stay in the bottom half of the championship makes zero sense to me.
Does anyone have any insight or even guesses as to why they continue to fund the club in this way? |
Tax expense right off? |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 21:41 - May 8 with 5321 views | stevec |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 19:43 - May 8 by PunteR |
Tax expense right off? |
Possibly but if they’ve run up losses of £200m they’re only going to save about 45% of that so still blown over a hundred mill.
Put it another way, if it was just that, it’s cheaper just to pay the tax!
I guess they get some enjoyment out of it and some profile and it’s possible it brings them into contact with other business opportunities but again, one hundred plus mill sounds an expensive way of doing it. |  | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 22:45 - May 8 with 5188 views | R_from_afar |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 17:47 - May 8 by NewYorkRanger |
Thanks for publishing this - very interesting. It's well known that the owners are funding the running of the club and without them we are screwed. But, as they own the majority of the club's debt, it's unlikely that there will be a crisis any time soon.
But what I don't understand is WHY they do it? What's in the business model that isn't obvious? Nearly £200m invested to stay in the bottom half of the championship makes zero sense to me.
Does anyone have any insight or even guesses as to why they continue to fund the club in this way? |
I thought I read somewhere that one reason is that Ruben's children enjoy attending our games... |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 23:14 - May 8 with 5134 views | TwoHalves |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 22:45 - May 8 by R_from_afar |
I thought I read somewhere that one reason is that Ruben's children enjoy attending our games... |
What’s wrong with them? | | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 01:37 - May 9 with 5027 views | ozexile |
They could probably save about 2 mill a year but. Cutting down on our ridiculously large backroom staff. I'd start there. | | | |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 09:42 - May 9 with 4713 views | SimonD |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 16:57 - May 8 by dmm |
Thank you Simon for your work in producing such a helpful piece. I'm not great at reading accounts but even I can see that these figures are a concern. It seems we're not only running to stand still, but also having to run a bit faster with each passing year.
Will there not be a point reached when this all becomes unsustainable? |
If you take the investment in the training facility out of the equation, the investment is pretty flat. It becomes unsustainable when Ruben (or whoever he finds to buy him out) has had enough. Thankfully Ruben appears to be poles apart from Chansiri.
However, what is being achieved? | | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 11:39 - May 9 with 4562 views | TK1 |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 09:42 - May 9 by SimonD |
If you take the investment in the training facility out of the equation, the investment is pretty flat. It becomes unsustainable when Ruben (or whoever he finds to buy him out) has had enough. Thankfully Ruben appears to be poles apart from Chansiri.
However, what is being achieved? |
New ground. Either a redeveloped LR - which is far more advanced than publicly announced or believed to be possible - or at Old Oak/Car Giant, which is currently more likely. Once that's completed, he leaves having delivered a training ground and stadium. | | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 12:47 - May 9 with 4454 views | R_from_afar |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 23:14 - May 8 by TwoHalves |
What’s wrong with them? |
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| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 16:31 - May 9 with 4205 views | NorrisGreen |
I imagine it's hard to pin down a figure, but what's the club worth today?
I suppose there's the sensible correct answer of "eff all" (or £50 million less than eff all) AND there's the whacky world of football finance value.
So, if Ruben was minded to sell, and I had won the Euromillions jackpot and convinced him I was a fit & proper person to own the club, what sort of figure would I be looking at paying? | | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 16:49 - May 9 with 4159 views | Northernr |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 16:31 - May 9 by NorrisGreen |
I imagine it's hard to pin down a figure, but what's the club worth today?
I suppose there's the sensible correct answer of "eff all" (or £50 million less than eff all) AND there's the whacky world of football finance value.
So, if Ruben was minded to sell, and I had won the Euromillions jackpot and convinced him I was a fit & proper person to own the club, what sort of figure would I be looking at paying? |
Well just his debt, the historic FFP fine, and next year’s £27m+ wage bill would be a tidy sum on its own. I got told a story of a businessman who through a twisted set of circumstances got chatting to them about investing/buying it outright in the pre-Covid days and got as far as them opening the books for him to do due diligence and he described it as “completely uninvestible”. A bin fire for money basically. But that was a long time ago now so, hey, maybe it’s improved. | | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 19:42 - May 9 with 3944 views | TwoHalves |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 16:49 - May 9 by Northernr |
Well just his debt, the historic FFP fine, and next year’s £27m+ wage bill would be a tidy sum on its own. I got told a story of a businessman who through a twisted set of circumstances got chatting to them about investing/buying it outright in the pre-Covid days and got as far as them opening the books for him to do due diligence and he described it as “completely uninvestible”. A bin fire for money basically. But that was a long time ago now so, hey, maybe it’s improved. |
Wouldn’t be the best Dragon’s Den pitch, would it. | | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 19:47 - May 9 with 3937 views | kensalriser |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 21:41 - May 8 by stevec |
Possibly but if they’ve run up losses of £200m they’re only going to save about 45% of that so still blown over a hundred mill.
Put it another way, if it was just that, it’s cheaper just to pay the tax!
I guess they get some enjoyment out of it and some profile and it’s possible it brings them into contact with other business opportunities but again, one hundred plus mill sounds an expensive way of doing it. |
That's assuming Ruben is UK tax domiciled, which seems unlikely.
There certainly isn't any tax saving on the UK registered QPR companies because they're loss making. Who knows what Ruben's personal tax arrangements are, but even if he can claim 100% of QPR's losses it's hardly a convincing reason to continue. |  |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 21:47 - May 9 with 3805 views | NorrisGreen |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 16:49 - May 9 by Northernr |
Well just his debt, the historic FFP fine, and next year’s £27m+ wage bill would be a tidy sum on its own. I got told a story of a businessman who through a twisted set of circumstances got chatting to them about investing/buying it outright in the pre-Covid days and got as far as them opening the books for him to do due diligence and he described it as “completely uninvestible”. A bin fire for money basically. But that was a long time ago now so, hey, maybe it’s improved. |
Jeez, think I'll pass! Thing is, our finances don't seem to be out of kilter with many other clubs but clubs do keep changing hands.
It does seem weird that most EFL club sales seem to occur when the club is in a right state with hated owners, nearly bankrupt but probably in administration. Be a bummer if Ruben suddenly realises the best way to attract buyers (vultures?) is to run the club into the ground... oh hang on, maybe our stagnation is making commercial sense then  | | | |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 12:34 - May 10 with 3399 views | kensalriser |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 21:47 - May 9 by NorrisGreen |
Jeez, think I'll pass! Thing is, our finances don't seem to be out of kilter with many other clubs but clubs do keep changing hands.
It does seem weird that most EFL club sales seem to occur when the club is in a right state with hated owners, nearly bankrupt but probably in administration. Be a bummer if Ruben suddenly realises the best way to attract buyers (vultures?) is to run the club into the ground... oh hang on, maybe our stagnation is making commercial sense then |
I think you've got cause and effect the wrong way around there. | |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 14:30 - May 10 with 3271 views | LazyFan |
If we have been losing £20m every year for 5 years plus, this means we have been losing less money (due to inflation) whilst maintaining position.
16th for less cost. So the SAME for LESS.
Should we sell some players, it could become the SAME for even LESS.
This season, we have found some gems in L1 and elsewhere. Not one, but two forwards at the Champ level is amazing. Forwards go for massive monies. We have also invested in a CD in Edwards, who, whilst I think is not Prem level in the air, is defo a cultured CB at Champ level. So, very expensive at £4.5m, but will last, possibly, a good 10 years if we never sell him. Vale, who we can only count in for this season, managed 32 games and looks like he's starting to find his way in the Champ. Madsen, we found his best position, which is number 6, not 8. This allows him to hang back and play from our half, rather than having to run back from the opp's half (which he cannot do in time). So, that £4m outlay for him looks like a good investment now. This is why he's the player of the season.
Mbengue for a tribunal fee of £350K is good business. Even if he becomes sub, which is likely, that's still cheap.
Morgan and Kolli have now established themselves in the first team squad, thus also showing progress for the youngsters.
Bennie, we have discovered his best position is striker, after trying him everywhere else. Bennie is a nice reserve to have if you get an injury crisis up front. Even oldie Smyth improved, scoring 6 goals this year, and he was a sub in many games. His runs into the centre now are clearly due to coaching from JS, as that's new.
Smith, in his last game, looked much better; he needs a loan. Obikwu looks like a prospect and was bought for the same money I assume we sold Frey for. Isak Alemayehu looks like he might have something about him, too.
Not to mention, we only had one loan in this season. RND is decent, but I doubt we'll get him, as his wages are too high.
Getting rid of Kelman for £3.5m and Frey for £500K, means £4m for players we did not need. This, to me, is good business.
And this is the trend I am seeing, young players who are not gonna make it and moving on the old ones who we cannot sell for anything much, such as Frey, Cook, Nardi and Hayden.
The big negative is the final league position, which I put down to new squad building; only two players went backwards (Varane and Saito), new manager QPR reverse-bounce, young players being called upon too early, as the main negator is, of course, a terrible injury run. And not sorting out LB at the start of the season, as we knew this was a problem. When you lose your star player for an entire season, as we did with Chair, this end position and all of this should come as no surprise.
Bearing in mind that if Mbengue had not done a brain fart in the Wrexham game, we would have finished 13th and almost in the top half.
Also, avoiding the relegation scrap whilst suffering massive injuries and not having to rely on our talisman, Chair, to bail us out is a big win. This gives players and fans the confidence that without Chair we can still compete, as long as we don't have all these injuries (don't laugh at the back).
Should players like Chair, JCS (stop it) and Poku (I said stop it), manage to give us more than half a season next season, then with the others we should be top half.
For transfers, I expect us to move on Lloyd, Adamson and the forgotten men, Santos, EDB and Celar. This should free up the space we need for LB, GK and box-to-box DMC. If we sell Madsen and Varane, then we would have to replace them like-for-like, of course. Then there is Field, who may not be sold.
Summary:
Last season was all about squad building for the future, done within budget.
It was future-proofing the squad so we don't enter into relegation battles anymore. And then see what we need to do to move the Champ up. I think we did do that, and it's a big if, but if they do fix the gaps, then we have a chance to be in the top half.
What some people may not have realised with the 8th play-off spot is that come Jan, many Championship clubs will start spending silly money if they feel they are losing touch with 8th. Especially if they are ex-Premiership clubs, and especially if they see rivals doing that. Imagine Wolves are in 4th spot come Jan, and they see Wrexham and Brum go for it, they will respond. This may cause a very busy January transfer window in the Champ. Especially loans. Chelsescum and Liverpool will have found a new market.
If we fix the gaps and replace any big sales, then I am positive that we can be in the top half or, in the worst case, maintain 16th :P
We shall know what the situation is in this transfer window. |  |
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| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 19:08 - May 10 with 2984 views | Stainrod |
| Running to stand still – where does QPR’s money go? Analysis on 14:30 - May 10 by LazyFan |
If we have been losing £20m every year for 5 years plus, this means we have been losing less money (due to inflation) whilst maintaining position.
16th for less cost. So the SAME for LESS.
Should we sell some players, it could become the SAME for even LESS.
This season, we have found some gems in L1 and elsewhere. Not one, but two forwards at the Champ level is amazing. Forwards go for massive monies. We have also invested in a CD in Edwards, who, whilst I think is not Prem level in the air, is defo a cultured CB at Champ level. So, very expensive at £4.5m, but will last, possibly, a good 10 years if we never sell him. Vale, who we can only count in for this season, managed 32 games and looks like he's starting to find his way in the Champ. Madsen, we found his best position, which is number 6, not 8. This allows him to hang back and play from our half, rather than having to run back from the opp's half (which he cannot do in time). So, that £4m outlay for him looks like a good investment now. This is why he's the player of the season.
Mbengue for a tribunal fee of £350K is good business. Even if he becomes sub, which is likely, that's still cheap.
Morgan and Kolli have now established themselves in the first team squad, thus also showing progress for the youngsters.
Bennie, we have discovered his best position is striker, after trying him everywhere else. Bennie is a nice reserve to have if you get an injury crisis up front. Even oldie Smyth improved, scoring 6 goals this year, and he was a sub in many games. His runs into the centre now are clearly due to coaching from JS, as that's new.
Smith, in his last game, looked much better; he needs a loan. Obikwu looks like a prospect and was bought for the same money I assume we sold Frey for. Isak Alemayehu looks like he might have something about him, too.
Not to mention, we only had one loan in this season. RND is decent, but I doubt we'll get him, as his wages are too high.
Getting rid of Kelman for £3.5m and Frey for £500K, means £4m for players we did not need. This, to me, is good business.
And this is the trend I am seeing, young players who are not gonna make it and moving on the old ones who we cannot sell for anything much, such as Frey, Cook, Nardi and Hayden.
The big negative is the final league position, which I put down to new squad building; only two players went backwards (Varane and Saito), new manager QPR reverse-bounce, young players being called upon too early, as the main negator is, of course, a terrible injury run. And not sorting out LB at the start of the season, as we knew this was a problem. When you lose your star player for an entire season, as we did with Chair, this end position and all of this should come as no surprise.
Bearing in mind that if Mbengue had not done a brain fart in the Wrexham game, we would have finished 13th and almost in the top half.
Also, avoiding the relegation scrap whilst suffering massive injuries and not having to rely on our talisman, Chair, to bail us out is a big win. This gives players and fans the confidence that without Chair we can still compete, as long as we don't have all these injuries (don't laugh at the back).
Should players like Chair, JCS (stop it) and Poku (I said stop it), manage to give us more than half a season next season, then with the others we should be top half.
For transfers, I expect us to move on Lloyd, Adamson and the forgotten men, Santos, EDB and Celar. This should free up the space we need for LB, GK and box-to-box DMC. If we sell Madsen and Varane, then we would have to replace them like-for-like, of course. Then there is Field, who may not be sold.
Summary:
Last season was all about squad building for the future, done within budget.
It was future-proofing the squad so we don't enter into relegation battles anymore. And then see what we need to do to move the Champ up. I think we did do that, and it's a big if, but if they do fix the gaps, then we have a chance to be in the top half.
What some people may not have realised with the 8th play-off spot is that come Jan, many Championship clubs will start spending silly money if they feel they are losing touch with 8th. Especially if they are ex-Premiership clubs, and especially if they see rivals doing that. Imagine Wolves are in 4th spot come Jan, and they see Wrexham and Brum go for it, they will respond. This may cause a very busy January transfer window in the Champ. Especially loans. Chelsescum and Liverpool will have found a new market.
If we fix the gaps and replace any big sales, then I am positive that we can be in the top half or, in the worst case, maintain 16th :P
We shall know what the situation is in this transfer window. |
Agree with a lot of this. We have improved processes, personnel and infrastructure. There has just been a lag in results improving, which happens. So I am similarly optimistic.
Two caveats for me:
Fitness - getting our best players on the park for far more of the season is more important to me than transfers, managers or anything else. If we had Chair, Burrell and Kolli (and possibly Poku - still no idea if he is any good) available for most games I think we could have been top 10 with relative ease.
Out-goings - wanting/ needing to off-load the likes of Celar much easier than doing so, albeit Nourry has done well to attract fees for players who are scarcely assets at all. I have a theory that player values are reflected as much by the reputation a club enjoys for being a conveyor belt of talent as for the actual ability of the player in question. That is something we have also clearly improved on. | | | |
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