| Salary cap on 15:58 - Feb 9 with 2418 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Does anyone know why the Championship wasn't part of this EFL proposal? |  | |  |
| Salary cap on 16:10 - Feb 9 with 2377 views | terryb |
I think the Division 1 & 2 clubs voted for a salary cap & I can only assume that Championship clubs would have opposed the idea. However, neither of that may be fact!
Is the EFL now liable to claims from clubs arguing that they could have gained promotion if they had been allowed to operate outside of the salary cap?
I can only think of Sunderland & Portsmouth that may have been able to spend a fair amount more, although Ipswich must have increased their wage bill with the January loanees. |  | | |
| Salary cap on 16:48 - Feb 9 with 2286 views | Rangersw12 |
Can't be long before FFP goes the same way? | | | |
| Salary cap on 17:04 - Feb 9 with 2237 views | bosh67 |
Can we be fined under this ruling. I mean absolutely no rhyme or reason but we usually get fined millions for not cutting toe nails in the right order so why not this? |  |
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| Salary cap on 17:37 - Feb 9 with 2178 views | Juzzie |
| Salary cap on 16:10 - Feb 9 by terryb |
I think the Division 1 & 2 clubs voted for a salary cap & I can only assume that Championship clubs would have opposed the idea. However, neither of that may be fact!
Is the EFL now liable to claims from clubs arguing that they could have gained promotion if they had been allowed to operate outside of the salary cap?
I can only think of Sunderland & Portsmouth that may have been able to spend a fair amount more, although Ipswich must have increased their wage bill with the January loanees. |
I thought the whole idea of FFP was that each club has to operate within it's means?
This clearly gives clubs with bigger capacity/attendance (pre & post covid) than others an advantage but thems the rules so how can they then curtail that with a salary cap?
Which could be why they rejected the idea of a salary cap as it directly conflicts with FFP otherwise every club in each league may as well send all their income to a central pot then it's divvied out 24 ways so everyone has an equal share.
Nope, that won't happen either. |  | | |
| Salary cap on 17:49 - Feb 9 with 2143 views | stevec |
Good to get clarification that the PFA are happy their players can carry on bankrupting clubs.
I trust we’ll have no more bllocks on here slagging off supporters who dare to criticise any underperforming overpaid charlatan. |  | | |
| Salary cap on 18:27 - Feb 9 with 2075 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Salary cap on 17:49 - Feb 9 by stevec |
Good to get clarification that the PFA are happy their players can carry on bankrupting clubs.
I trust we’ll have no more bllocks on here slagging off supporters who dare to criticise any underperforming overpaid charlatan. |
Spot on.
The practice of players writing, offering and then signing their own contracts needs to end.
Players don't bankrupt clubs. Let's stop being so silly. |  |
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| Salary cap on 21:11 - Feb 9 with 1844 views | Dorse |
| Salary cap on 17:04 - Feb 9 by bosh67 |
Can we be fined under this ruling. I mean absolutely no rhyme or reason but we usually get fined millions for not cutting toe nails in the right order so why not this? |
No, they settled for tarring and feathering Lee Hoos and kicking Les Ferdinand's dog as a warning not to not do anything again. [Post edited 9 Feb 2021 21:13]
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| Salary cap on 21:53 - Feb 9 with 1777 views | Konk |
| Salary cap on 17:49 - Feb 9 by stevec |
Good to get clarification that the PFA are happy their players can carry on bankrupting clubs.
I trust we’ll have no more bllocks on here slagging off supporters who dare to criticise any underperforming overpaid charlatan. |
Surely it's irresponsible owners who are responsible for running clubs into the ground? Fans constantly demanding that owners "show some ambition" and spend money the club can't afford, are also not without blame. Just because a player asks for £x pw, it doesn't mean an owner has to agree to it. If an owner agrees to pay a rank average player £30kpw, do you honestly expect that player to say, "I tell you what, I think you'll be disappointed when you see me play regularly, so let's call it £5kpw and a £50 bonus if we go up"? |  |
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| Salary cap on 22:22 - Feb 9 with 1713 views | stevec |
| Salary cap on 21:53 - Feb 9 by Konk |
Surely it's irresponsible owners who are responsible for running clubs into the ground? Fans constantly demanding that owners "show some ambition" and spend money the club can't afford, are also not without blame. Just because a player asks for £x pw, it doesn't mean an owner has to agree to it. If an owner agrees to pay a rank average player £30kpw, do you honestly expect that player to say, "I tell you what, I think you'll be disappointed when you see me play regularly, so let's call it £5kpw and a £50 bonus if we go up"? |
You’re being naive.
I suppose the leagues wages to turnover ratio being at 104% average has nothing to do with the players and their agents greed. Do you honestly think it even crosses the players minds that they’re sending clubs broke?
Perhaps you can tell me any other industry where this happens on such a grand scale. It’s insane and the PFA’s greed has restored that insanity . | | | |
| Salary cap on 06:45 - Feb 10 with 1605 views | Konk |
| Salary cap on 22:22 - Feb 9 by stevec |
You’re being naive.
I suppose the leagues wages to turnover ratio being at 104% average has nothing to do with the players and their agents greed. Do you honestly think it even crosses the players minds that they’re sending clubs broke?
Perhaps you can tell me any other industry where this happens on such a grand scale. It’s insane and the PFA’s greed has restored that insanity . |
What do you think the average player in the bottom two divisions is earning? Other than at clubs like Sunderland, Ipswich and Pompey, and other clubs with ‘ambitious’ owners, I don’t think it’s an insane amount compared to what someone with a trade could be earning. How much do you reckon Accrington’s lowest paid first team regulars are on?
Ruben Loftus-Cheek is on £100k+pw. If Chelsea let him go, and no club agrees to match that, what do you think will happen? He’ll either accept less money or I suppose he could retire, if he was feeling particularly sorry for himself, and had invested his money wisely. If his only offer was £10kpw, I’m pretty sure he’d take that. He can’t force anyone to sign him on a deal the club can’t afford.
I hate the fact that everything is about the Premier League TV deal. We have loads of investors buying clubs, who’s primary aim is to get a share of the PL money. In the Championship in particular, it means they’ll risk the club’s future to have a shot at promotion, hanging about for a few years like Burnley or Bournemouth, by which time you might have done nicely out of dividends/payments, and you can sell the club onto another investor for an inflated sum based on PL TV income, such as happened at Burnley with their £170m takeover.
Supply and demand - there are plenty of decent footballers out there playing in the lower divisions or non-league, who would happily play for ‘sensible money’ - the only people who can deflate wages are the owners. Obviously the PL money skews everything, but a club can always insist on relegation clauses.
I find it interesting that you seem like a free-marketeer in general, yet think footballers should ask for salaries below what owners are willing to pay them. When we had trades renovating our house, none of them gave a s hit about whether we were financially stretched - they charged us the going rate. And if they’d have been able to charge double, I expect they would.
I worked with people who every single year, kicked-off about their pay review and bonus, intimating that they would be moving on, if it wasn’t revised. It was up to the management to decide whether to fold or not. They very seldom did, and people very seldom quit because they were actually being paid the going rate. In football, it’s the owners who set the going rate. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Salary cap on 08:09 - Feb 10 with 1525 views | distortR |
| Salary cap on 06:45 - Feb 10 by Konk |
What do you think the average player in the bottom two divisions is earning? Other than at clubs like Sunderland, Ipswich and Pompey, and other clubs with ‘ambitious’ owners, I don’t think it’s an insane amount compared to what someone with a trade could be earning. How much do you reckon Accrington’s lowest paid first team regulars are on?
Ruben Loftus-Cheek is on £100k+pw. If Chelsea let him go, and no club agrees to match that, what do you think will happen? He’ll either accept less money or I suppose he could retire, if he was feeling particularly sorry for himself, and had invested his money wisely. If his only offer was £10kpw, I’m pretty sure he’d take that. He can’t force anyone to sign him on a deal the club can’t afford.
I hate the fact that everything is about the Premier League TV deal. We have loads of investors buying clubs, who’s primary aim is to get a share of the PL money. In the Championship in particular, it means they’ll risk the club’s future to have a shot at promotion, hanging about for a few years like Burnley or Bournemouth, by which time you might have done nicely out of dividends/payments, and you can sell the club onto another investor for an inflated sum based on PL TV income, such as happened at Burnley with their £170m takeover.
Supply and demand - there are plenty of decent footballers out there playing in the lower divisions or non-league, who would happily play for ‘sensible money’ - the only people who can deflate wages are the owners. Obviously the PL money skews everything, but a club can always insist on relegation clauses.
I find it interesting that you seem like a free-marketeer in general, yet think footballers should ask for salaries below what owners are willing to pay them. When we had trades renovating our house, none of them gave a s hit about whether we were financially stretched - they charged us the going rate. And if they’d have been able to charge double, I expect they would.
I worked with people who every single year, kicked-off about their pay review and bonus, intimating that they would be moving on, if it wasn’t revised. It was up to the management to decide whether to fold or not. They very seldom did, and people very seldom quit because they were actually being paid the going rate. In football, it’s the owners who set the going rate. |
The reality now is in the middle somewhere. Yeah, it started with the owners but now clubs are caught in a malignant mesh partly of their own design, trapped between the fear of failure and the financial costs of relegation (Hugely, stupidly exacerbated by TV money) and the demands of players, agents playing the system and, yes, us.
The truth is, if a team in the championship pays wages that are sustainable without being able to complement their basic income with a successful strategy of selling their assets  the result is likely to be relegation.
So, you sell high, buy low and have one season where your signings struggle to make the impact you need - relegation  . A quick fix is mid-season loans of players of a certain caliber, particularly in terms of experience - but they don't come cheap and their agents and parent club know that you are in a fix 
Ironically, for many it is the huge influx of money into the game that has made it unsustainable - in football as in life
What a mess
edited to try and make it vaguely coherent [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 8:19]
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| Salary cap on 08:46 - Feb 10 with 1471 views | GroveR |
| Salary cap on 21:53 - Feb 9 by Konk |
Surely it's irresponsible owners who are responsible for running clubs into the ground? Fans constantly demanding that owners "show some ambition" and spend money the club can't afford, are also not without blame. Just because a player asks for £x pw, it doesn't mean an owner has to agree to it. If an owner agrees to pay a rank average player £30kpw, do you honestly expect that player to say, "I tell you what, I think you'll be disappointed when you see me play regularly, so let's call it £5kpw and a £50 bonus if we go up"? |
Are you Patrick Agyemang's agent? |  | | |
| Salary cap on 09:20 - Feb 10 with 1426 views | stevec |
| Salary cap on 08:09 - Feb 10 by distortR |
The reality now is in the middle somewhere. Yeah, it started with the owners but now clubs are caught in a malignant mesh partly of their own design, trapped between the fear of failure and the financial costs of relegation (Hugely, stupidly exacerbated by TV money) and the demands of players, agents playing the system and, yes, us.
The truth is, if a team in the championship pays wages that are sustainable without being able to complement their basic income with a successful strategy of selling their assets the result is likely to be relegation.
So, you sell high, buy low and have one season where your signings struggle to make the impact you need - relegation . A quick fix is mid-season loans of players of a certain caliber, particularly in terms of experience - but they don't come cheap and their agents and parent club know that you are in a fix
Ironically, for many it is the huge influx of money into the game that has made it unsustainable - in football as in life
What a mess
edited to try and make it vaguely coherent [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 8:19]
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That covers it pretty well.
It’s not as if the wage caps were going to consign players to the poor house, in League One the cap would have allowed for 100 grand a year salaries and if the Championship had gone ahead with an £18 mill cap most of them could be on a million a year!
Is that not enough? | | | |
| Salary cap on 09:22 - Feb 10 with 1418 views | markqpr |
Whichever way you cut the cake, football will eat itself. |  | | |
| Salary cap on 09:27 - Feb 10 with 1405 views | BrianMcCarthy |
The worry I have with wage caps - and it's only a worry and it's not based on fact - is that it doesn't stop clubs losing money and/or going bankrupt. Transfer fees will rise instead as rich clubs can afford to outbid other clubs knowing the wages will be small.
People on here (sorry, I forget who) who've suggested that the regulations should be simply around operating losses seem to have it nailed for me. If small clubs want to then chase the big clubs, they can as long as the owners fund it. That would be fairer, and it would stop clubs from going bankrupt.
Nailing wages for the L1 and L2 players, many of whom are on crap wages, while agents continue to get rich and clubs continue to go to the wall doesn't seem to fix the problem. |  |
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| Salary cap on 09:35 - Feb 10 with 1384 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Salary cap on 22:22 - Feb 9 by stevec |
You’re being naive.
I suppose the leagues wages to turnover ratio being at 104% average has nothing to do with the players and their agents greed. Do you honestly think it even crosses the players minds that they’re sending clubs broke?
Perhaps you can tell me any other industry where this happens on such a grand scale. It’s insane and the PFA’s greed has restored that insanity . |
This is true.
Sandro infamously got Tony Fernandes in a headlock and forced him to pay him £80k per week. | | | |
| Salary cap on 09:37 - Feb 10 with 1376 views | Phildo |
I think the 'big six' thing was those clubs led by American owners trying to fix this - for themselves by cutting everyone else loose and effectively creating a closed shop in which revenue would rise- and they would have more profitable businesses.
I think it misunderstood in may ways the European football world and probably would not have worked for them as a franchise model. But they were trying to fix something fundamental - too many clubs means there is always someone offering to pay more to beat you. The ultra competitive model of football had - to their eyes- to become less competitive to get the wages to turnover in a healthier state.
I suspect this decision will have knock on effects for other sports as well.
Although the likes of Liverpool do not care about wages in league 2 they will look at what has happened with a form of collective bargaining and resolve to break that somehow as it will be a threat to their long term aims. I find it ironic those clubs supporters were all piling in to support those ideas when they were going to be made very vulnerable by that franchise model.
The UK post Brexit will be easier to lobby for change as well that fans may not like or see coming. |  | | |
| Salary cap on 09:43 - Feb 10 with 1352 views | Konk |
| Salary cap on 09:20 - Feb 10 by stevec |
That covers it pretty well.
It’s not as if the wage caps were going to consign players to the poor house, in League One the cap would have allowed for 100 grand a year salaries and if the Championship had gone ahead with an £18 mill cap most of them could be on a million a year!
Is that not enough? |
I'm going out now, but do you think there should be salary caps in other private sector industries? I'd have thought that was all a bit socialist for a man with your politics.
Since Fulham got to the PL, I have watched loads of bang average/poor players being paid £20k+pw to either run around looking out of their depth, or sit, week-after-week, forgotten on the bench until their contracts expire. Players I can barely remember being paid £3m+ for their time at the club (although half of that will have gone to HMRC.) I completely agree that PL footballers, and many (most? all?) in the Championship are paid far too much money, and that it's completely unsustainable, I just think that owners are free to refuse to pay inflated salaries. And more enlightened fans would accept that in the club's long term interests. I would rather support a team pi ssing about in midtable in the lower divisions, than risk losing our club or ground.
Clubs can 'succeed' without busting the bank - Accrington are currently above Ipswich, and on the same number of points as Sunderland, with two games in hand. Maybe some clubs need to be a bit more imaginative and work a bit harder to identify signings from lower divisions who aren't after silly money?
I would love to see a salary cap from top-to-bottom in football, but it might be tricky from a legal perspective, and many clubs don't have an appetite to compete on equal terms. Sunderland would argue that they shouldn't be held back by the fact Accrington get by on gates of 2-3000, whilst they can get 20k+. FFP as it stands is an absolute sack of sh it, and not fit for purpose. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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| Salary cap on 09:48 - Feb 10 with 1335 views | stevec |
| Salary cap on 09:35 - Feb 10 by BazzaInTheLoft |
This is true.
Sandro infamously got Tony Fernandes in a headlock and forced him to pay him £80k per week. |
Well I think we both know the answer to this, Fernandes probably thought that outlays like £4 million a year on the right players would be the difference between £150 million TV income and £5 million TV income the following year. Unfortunately Fernandes picked a wrong’un, in fact, quite a few wrong’uns.
Also I don’t agree with us doing that either.
But, given your politics, that does leave an interesting conundrum. Given wage caps would bring some sustainability to football clubs outside the Premier league and as I said previously, the wage cap in League One would have meant most players could be pulling 100 grand a year and in our very own league, a million a year. Do you think that’s a perfectly reasonable income for their status? | | | |
| Salary cap on 09:51 - Feb 10 with 1322 views | loftboy |
What I don’t understand is that the aim is to get to the PL to get the riches but most clubs get relegated millions in debt, surely the way to go when you get there is to spend less than what the tv revenue is? [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 10:34]
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| Salary cap on 10:49 - Feb 10 with 1223 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Salary cap on 09:48 - Feb 10 by stevec |
Well I think we both know the answer to this, Fernandes probably thought that outlays like £4 million a year on the right players would be the difference between £150 million TV income and £5 million TV income the following year. Unfortunately Fernandes picked a wrong’un, in fact, quite a few wrong’uns.
Also I don’t agree with us doing that either.
But, given your politics, that does leave an interesting conundrum. Given wage caps would bring some sustainability to football clubs outside the Premier league and as I said previously, the wage cap in League One would have meant most players could be pulling 100 grand a year and in our very own league, a million a year. Do you think that’s a perfectly reasonable income for their status? |
It’s not a conundrum for me and ‘given my politics’ in a industry that is worth £50bn worldwide I quite enjoy the principle that the workers who create the wealth (the footballers not the owners) get rich from it. If only Amazon workers, Deliveroo riders, or even football auxiliary staff had the same.
Football finances needs heavy regulation clearly and the income inequality is ruining the game, but as has been said over and over it is the owners that need regulating not the players. A salary cap is a lazy and meaningless term to be honest. Would rather see a overall wage expenditure cap tied to a percentage of income. Better still, throw shitty owners who ruin football clubs in prison and hand over their clubs to the government like we do with banks.
John Reid who is the QPR LSA secretary by the way put it better than I ever could in this book:
Reclaim the Game : The Death of the People's Game, the Great Premier League Swindle https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1870958357/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_fabc_0XV0KPDPBJ90QSV2J [Post edited 10 Feb 2021 11:02]
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| Salary cap on 10:54 - Feb 10 with 1203 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Salary cap on 09:43 - Feb 10 by Konk |
I'm going out now, but do you think there should be salary caps in other private sector industries? I'd have thought that was all a bit socialist for a man with your politics.
Since Fulham got to the PL, I have watched loads of bang average/poor players being paid £20k+pw to either run around looking out of their depth, or sit, week-after-week, forgotten on the bench until their contracts expire. Players I can barely remember being paid £3m+ for their time at the club (although half of that will have gone to HMRC.) I completely agree that PL footballers, and many (most? all?) in the Championship are paid far too much money, and that it's completely unsustainable, I just think that owners are free to refuse to pay inflated salaries. And more enlightened fans would accept that in the club's long term interests. I would rather support a team pi ssing about in midtable in the lower divisions, than risk losing our club or ground.
Clubs can 'succeed' without busting the bank - Accrington are currently above Ipswich, and on the same number of points as Sunderland, with two games in hand. Maybe some clubs need to be a bit more imaginative and work a bit harder to identify signings from lower divisions who aren't after silly money?
I would love to see a salary cap from top-to-bottom in football, but it might be tricky from a legal perspective, and many clubs don't have an appetite to compete on equal terms. Sunderland would argue that they shouldn't be held back by the fact Accrington get by on gates of 2-3000, whilst they can get 20k+. FFP as it stands is an absolute sack of sh it, and not fit for purpose. |
"but do you think there should be salary caps in other private sector industries? I'd have thought that was all a bit socialist for a man with your politics."
I don't see salary caps as socialist at all, Konk, I see them as driving down workers' wages .
Minimum wages are socialist, but salary caps don't seem to be at all. | |
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| Salary cap on 11:13 - Feb 10 with 1162 views | EastR |
| Salary cap on 09:27 - Feb 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
The worry I have with wage caps - and it's only a worry and it's not based on fact - is that it doesn't stop clubs losing money and/or going bankrupt. Transfer fees will rise instead as rich clubs can afford to outbid other clubs knowing the wages will be small.
People on here (sorry, I forget who) who've suggested that the regulations should be simply around operating losses seem to have it nailed for me. If small clubs want to then chase the big clubs, they can as long as the owners fund it. That would be fairer, and it would stop clubs from going bankrupt.
Nailing wages for the L1 and L2 players, many of whom are on crap wages, while agents continue to get rich and clubs continue to go to the wall doesn't seem to fix the problem. |
“the regulations should be simply around operating losses seem to have it nailed for me. If small clubs want to then chase the big clubs, they can as long as the owners fund it”.
The problem with that model is that the majority of owners leverage the funds by saddling the club with debts in the form of loans to them, so the club still gets squeezed in the end.
What would work is if they were forced into converting any funding into equity leaving them with all of the risk. Additionally, introduce legislation so that sale of heritage assets such as the stadium could not be traded independently of the club ownership. | |
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| Salary cap on 11:15 - Feb 10 with 1158 views | Konk |
| Salary cap on 10:54 - Feb 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
"but do you think there should be salary caps in other private sector industries? I'd have thought that was all a bit socialist for a man with your politics."
I don't see salary caps as socialist at all, Konk, I see them as driving down workers' wages .
Minimum wages are socialist, but salary caps don't seem to be at all. |
Good point, Brian! I got that very wrong, didn't I! Okay, well it's regulatory intervention to limit earnings, which I would have thought would horrify free-marketeers. | |
| Fulham FC: It's the taking part that counts |
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