| World Cup of Shame on 08:18 - Nov 6 with 2598 views | TGRRRSSS |
IN the end if they really cared they'd have done something in the past 12 years or so since they won the rights but here we are so....
Probably not the worst idea to lock this thread now - then someone can staryt a new one   |  | |  |
| World Cup of Shame on 08:37 - Nov 6 with 2576 views | distortR |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:17 - Nov 5 by nix |
I reserve the right to criticise other countries if I think their human rights' record is poor. It's not racist to do so or imperialistic (seriously, look up what that word actually means!). I can be even handed enough to be equally critical of my own country and do so regularly.
I am tired of cultural relativism. Because women have scarcely any rights in some countries it's okay because it's enshrined in books written by a man several thousands of years ago. No, just no.
Any more than I would have said the US could carry on with its policy of segregation enshrined in the Jim Crow laws.
None of this means that I don't see the issues in my country. None of this means that I think it's better in all ways than certain other countries. But to suggest that we can't be critical of them because we have our own issues is just the usual lazy whataboutery of the politically bankrupt. |
you're right Nix - I got caught in some 'whataboutery'. |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:38 - Nov 6 with 2484 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:28 - Nov 5 by BrianMcCarthy |
Not surprisingly, this is a great conversation.
I'm nowhere near making up my mind on this one. I suspect I'll still be revising my views throughout the tournament. On the one hand, I recognise the ills in Qatar. On the other, I can't help but recognise that no-one boycotted any of the previous World Cups, many of which were held in Countries with then-appalling records on human rights, violence, warmongering, racism and/or sexism.
If I'm going to boycott the World Cup in Qatar, I want to first convince myself that it's because their 'ills' are much worse than those of any previous host, not just because 'they' don't look like 'us'. |
Brian as I've said before, based on my 3 years experience working there for the UN dealing with workers and workers' rights issues, there has been many positive changes.
I'm not going to repeat myself, but I'll say two things: I remain baffled that Q won the hosting rights. While I've not followed a WC since Italia90, I've just not bothered delving into any of it, assuming corruption is rife everywhere and FIFA is rotten to the core. But Q really isn't a football country!
But there's been progress for sure and while many berate, the underlying challenge is that Q is a young country (51 on the day of the final) and therefore in my view, its institutional knowledge and systems are still low; its understanding of international norms and values is developing and should be considered in line with its 'youthfullness' and personally, I think its been massively overstretched getting ready.
Q has always said its a work in progress and acknowledged where it needs to develop and to its credit, its not been embarrassed to ask for help. Q's been encouraged and I've set in meetings where high profile individuals have praised that progress. I think it remains important to hold them to account where needs be, but acknowledge when progress has been made.
Like everywhere their are imperfections but for me it really all comes back to one thing: given the progress achieved and promises and commitments made by Q, will they continue after the WC packs up and goes home? Well that would be like predicting QPR results to say what will happen.
People should follow their conscience and credit to those who will maintain their boycotting stance, I fully respect you. Others will go and shrug off the controversies because their ream is there and that trumps all for them. Me? As soon as I see some tvvat rolling around feigning injury, its doofer, Netflix and fcuk off FIFA...the real villans for me!! |  |
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:38 - Nov 6 with 2484 views | traininvain |
| World Cup of Shame on 07:59 - Nov 6 by dmm |
Well done German football supporters. Will we see anything like this over here I wonder?
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Absolutely appalling. I hadn’t realised it was 15,000 dead migrant workers. Not that it makes much of a difference whether it’s 6,000 or 15,000. Shameful this has been allowed to happen.
Now that Fifa have been allowed to get away with this one I can see a World Cup in Saudi Arabia with similar issues within the next 20 years. |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:42 - Nov 6 with 2467 views | stevec |
It’ll be interesting to see how tournament pans out for fans who go.
From the little I’ve heard, for fans who’ve got their act together, you can drink yourself silly in hotels, restaurants are decent so whilst a little more reserved, hopefully a decent experience for the majority of fans.
I’ll be honest, I’m getting a little bored with the purveyors of virtue, constantly telling the world how to be better people or at least by their definition. All it seems to do is create further division, so it’s not actually working is it? |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 10:46 - Nov 6 with 2413 views | traininvain |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:42 - Nov 6 by stevec |
It’ll be interesting to see how tournament pans out for fans who go.
From the little I’ve heard, for fans who’ve got their act together, you can drink yourself silly in hotels, restaurants are decent so whilst a little more reserved, hopefully a decent experience for the majority of fans.
I’ll be honest, I’m getting a little bored with the purveyors of virtue, constantly telling the world how to be better people or at least by their definition. All it seems to do is create further division, so it’s not actually working is it? |
I’m sure people said the same about those who wanted slavery abolished in the US and the end of apartheid in South Africa. | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:19 - Nov 6 with 2377 views | dmm |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:42 - Nov 6 by stevec |
It’ll be interesting to see how tournament pans out for fans who go.
From the little I’ve heard, for fans who’ve got their act together, you can drink yourself silly in hotels, restaurants are decent so whilst a little more reserved, hopefully a decent experience for the majority of fans.
I’ll be honest, I’m getting a little bored with the purveyors of virtue, constantly telling the world how to be better people or at least by their definition. All it seems to do is create further division, so it’s not actually working is it? |
I can't imagine you're happy with the way the world works and, case in point, comfortable with the Qatar World Cup. So what, in your opinion, would work better to put things right?
Honest question, Steve. I'm not trying to start an argument with you. |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:25 - Nov 6 with 2365 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:42 - Nov 6 by stevec |
It’ll be interesting to see how tournament pans out for fans who go.
From the little I’ve heard, for fans who’ve got their act together, you can drink yourself silly in hotels, restaurants are decent so whilst a little more reserved, hopefully a decent experience for the majority of fans.
I’ll be honest, I’m getting a little bored with the purveyors of virtue, constantly telling the world how to be better people or at least by their definition. All it seems to do is create further division, so it’s not actually working is it? |
There simply aren't going to be enough 5 star hotels and what there are, FIFA will have probably blocked them off and I suspect even holders of Qatari resident permits (QIDs) will struggle to get in.
Alcohol was always expensive, I'm sure it will rise for the event. The only offy is for QID holders whose employers agree. So no cheap take outs from Tescos I'm afraid.
Beer will be available in the fanzones - what could go wrong there I wonder - and unless I'm mistaken, that's a long expensive trip for a Budweiser.
Then again, it won't kill many to give their livers a rest! | |
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| World Cup of Shame on 14:36 - Nov 6 with 2216 views | Boston |
| World Cup of Shame on 10:46 - Nov 6 by traininvain |
I’m sure people said the same about those who wanted slavery abolished in the US and the end of apartheid in South Africa. |
I'm sure people said the same about those who wanted slavery abolished in Britain. | |
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| World Cup of Shame on 14:54 - Nov 6 with 2204 views | PunteR |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:38 - Nov 6 by traininvain |
Absolutely appalling. I hadn’t realised it was 15,000 dead migrant workers. Not that it makes much of a difference whether it’s 6,000 or 15,000. Shameful this has been allowed to happen.
Now that Fifa have been allowed to get away with this one I can see a World Cup in Saudi Arabia with similar issues within the next 20 years. |
Yeh absolutely this.
This is the main problem for me.
Park up the Muslim attitude towards homosexuals or womens rights etc but 15000 people dying in construction of stadiums and other buildings over there is appalling.
For a country that prides itself on following a principled godlike code thats pretty strong evidence to show that their leaders (whoever is running the show) principled god fearing code is a load of BS. |  |
| Occasional providers of half decent House music. |
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| World Cup of Shame on 14:59 - Nov 6 with 2190 views | dmm |
| World Cup of Shame on 14:36 - Nov 6 by Boston |
I'm sure people said the same about those who wanted slavery abolished in Britain. |
And no doubt elsewhere in the world too.
Britain's slavery abolition law was passed in 1833 and cost the Government £20m in payments to slave owners for their 'losses'. This amounted to 40% of the national budget. Incredibly the debt incurred by the Government through those payments was only paid off in 2015.
Slavery finally 'ended' in the USA 32 years later in 1865 with the 13th Amendment.
Of course, the sad truth is slavery continues in every country in the world, including Britain and the USA, with an estimated 20 million people living in various forms of slavery. | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 15:05 - Nov 6 with 2179 views | traininvain |
| World Cup of Shame on 14:36 - Nov 6 by Boston |
I'm sure people said the same about those who wanted slavery abolished in Britain. |
Indeed but it doesn’t change my point that calling out backwards laws and cultures often results in positive change. It’s therefore misguided to try and shut down criticism of Qatar’s laws on homosexuality, treatment of migrant construction workers etc.
Never mind calling it racist which is quite frankly ridiculous and anyone peddling that lie is best off ignored! | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 15:12 - Nov 6 with 2154 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:38 - Nov 6 by PlanetHonneywood |
Brian as I've said before, based on my 3 years experience working there for the UN dealing with workers and workers' rights issues, there has been many positive changes.
I'm not going to repeat myself, but I'll say two things: I remain baffled that Q won the hosting rights. While I've not followed a WC since Italia90, I've just not bothered delving into any of it, assuming corruption is rife everywhere and FIFA is rotten to the core. But Q really isn't a football country!
But there's been progress for sure and while many berate, the underlying challenge is that Q is a young country (51 on the day of the final) and therefore in my view, its institutional knowledge and systems are still low; its understanding of international norms and values is developing and should be considered in line with its 'youthfullness' and personally, I think its been massively overstretched getting ready.
Q has always said its a work in progress and acknowledged where it needs to develop and to its credit, its not been embarrassed to ask for help. Q's been encouraged and I've set in meetings where high profile individuals have praised that progress. I think it remains important to hold them to account where needs be, but acknowledge when progress has been made.
Like everywhere their are imperfections but for me it really all comes back to one thing: given the progress achieved and promises and commitments made by Q, will they continue after the WC packs up and goes home? Well that would be like predicting QPR results to say what will happen.
People should follow their conscience and credit to those who will maintain their boycotting stance, I fully respect you. Others will go and shrug off the controversies because their ream is there and that trumps all for them. Me? As soon as I see some tvvat rolling around feigning injury, its doofer, Netflix and fcuk off FIFA...the real villans for me!! |
Thanks for that info, my man.
I had a great chat about ot this morning with another friend.
I'm only just beginning to think about this properly and only just beginning to get some info on it, so your info is a great help. |  |
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| World Cup of Shame on 15:14 - Nov 6 with 2143 views | distortR |
| World Cup of Shame on 15:12 - Nov 6 by BrianMcCarthy |
Thanks for that info, my man.
I had a great chat about ot this morning with another friend.
I'm only just beginning to think about this properly and only just beginning to get some info on it, so your info is a great help. |
I find it easier to make my decisions based on what mood I'm in, rather then so-called 'information' or 'facts'.
Hope that helps. | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 15:26 - Nov 6 with 2115 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| World Cup of Shame on 15:14 - Nov 6 by distortR |
I find it easier to make my decisions based on what mood I'm in, rather then so-called 'information' or 'facts'.
Hope that helps. |
Well, I'm in a good mood. So I think you're right. | |
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| World Cup of Shame on 18:43 - Nov 6 with 1995 views | Snipper |
I just can’t get excited about this World Cup. Normally, I really look forward to the start, and the excitement levels are high.
The two main reasons are:
1. It shouldn’t even be happening in Qatar.
2. It shouldn’t be happening in our winter.
I have the first two weeks as annual leave, as it’s the way it fell.
The first week I’m taking the missus to Ireland to visit family. The second week I gave up for Cheltenham in March next year.
Ps, I love the protests from German club fans yesterday. Good on them. |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 20:33 - Nov 6 with 1922 views | ted_hendrix |
Whilst discussing this topic or your gonna be watching this 'freak show' (unlike me) then spare a thought for the poor bastard from some village In the the foothills of the Himalayas who hugged his Wife and Kids one cold morning before heading off to Kathmandu airport to fly out to Qatar for six Months so he could earn enough money to send his Kids to school maybe for a few Years and also earn enough money to maybe just keep his shit together when he got back home.
He was likely returned home to his Wife and Kids a few Months later in a body bag or a makeshift coffin minus his salary.
None of this Is news, It's been going on for Years--I've posted comments on here before going way back, now as the 'freak show' approaches people on high (you know the ones In grey suits and drowning in jewellry) have suddenly turned to their dictionary to find out what the word conscience means and are beginning to say, "Ooh, erm, Shhh!!!! be quiet, look the other way".
I truly cringe at the thought of this WC.
Spare a thought for those poor migrant workers If you can, Death Is so final. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| World Cup of Shame on 23:00 - Nov 6 with 1797 views | daveB |
a lot of these protests are 12 years too late, seems mad that people are calling for boycotts 2 weeks before it starts, we knew this was a joke 12 years ago when it was announced. People were happy to go to qualifiers for 2 years and now on the eve of it are outraged. It's all quite mad. If one big nation had pulled out even 2 years ago when qualifiers started the impact would have been huge but not one single country did.
The last world cup was held in Russia which was hardly ideal either going to a country heavily linked to a chemical attack in our own country and shooting down a Malaysian plane after invading parts of Ukraine. Didn't stop them all hugging Putin and putting him front and centre when the trophy was presented. Every country who has ever hosted the tournament have some dark horrific moments in their history they would rather forget including us.
There is no way this tournament should be in Qatar for multiple reasons well expressed on here and elsewhere, it's a farce but it's happening and I'll still watch it as when the football starts it's still the pinnacle of football for me and something I am desperate to see England win wherever it is played. If they do well I'll be as invested and delirious by it all as I was last summer. |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 23:10 - Nov 6 with 1779 views | loftboy |
At least Scotland had the bottle to boycott it! |  |
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| World Cup of Shame on 08:47 - Nov 7 with 1614 views | toboboly |
if, like me, you're not going/bothered watching it may I gently prod you in the direction of non-league football. There will be a shedload taking place. It is cheap, the vast majority of teams haven't committed human rights abuses (looking at you Boreham Wood) and they would actually appreciate you being there.
There are some excellent resources online, such as the below:
https://nonleaguehq.wixsite.com/nlhq/next-fixtures-at-a-glance |  |
| Sexy Asian dwarves wanted. |
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| World Cup of Shame on 09:20 - Nov 7 with 1578 views | essextaxiboy |
| World Cup of Shame on 11:25 - Nov 6 by PlanetHonneywood |
There simply aren't going to be enough 5 star hotels and what there are, FIFA will have probably blocked them off and I suspect even holders of Qatari resident permits (QIDs) will struggle to get in.
Alcohol was always expensive, I'm sure it will rise for the event. The only offy is for QID holders whose employers agree. So no cheap take outs from Tescos I'm afraid.
Beer will be available in the fanzones - what could go wrong there I wonder - and unless I'm mistaken, that's a long expensive trip for a Budweiser.
Then again, it won't kill many to give their livers a rest! |
FIFA staff are in shared apartment accommodation 3 or 4 in each |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 10:24 - Nov 7 with 1492 views | Paddyhoops |
| World Cup of Shame on 23:10 - Nov 6 by loftboy |
At least Scotland had the bottle to boycott it! |
As a show of solidarity. Ireland will be boycotting the next 5 … at least! | | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 10:26 - Nov 7 with 1486 views | robith |
| World Cup of Shame on 12:45 - Nov 4 by traininvain |
I thought this was embarrassing stuff from Ronay and wonder if he was paid to spout such nonsense: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2022/nov/03/qatar-calling-its-critics-racis
‘None of this means Qatar is necessarily wrong. There may well be a racist campaign to portray its working conditions or the criminalisation of homosexuality as bad things. Manchester City’s owners can be the victims of genuine prejudice whatever the issues in the Emirates.’ |
I think it's pretty unfair to detach that sentence from its context
"But this is also a question of degree. The criticism of Qatar has come from human rights bodies, trade unions and left‑leaning voices. Is Amnesty racist? Is Antonio Rüdiger racist? Is Unison racist? Are the only non‑racist people out there Adidas, McDonald’s, Budweiser, Coca‑Cola and Visa, which have wisely kept their counsel on Qatar’s World Cup?
It is a line that will be explored more often as the noise around Qatar 2022 reaches its peak; and an issue to be treated as more than just a shared bile-fest. Albeit with the proviso that such statements start to look cheap or vexatious without proper substance; and that there is a danger cries of discrimination from football’s hyper‑rich powerbrokers might ring a little hollow to the less privileged, or sound like an unearned smear." |  | | |
| World Cup of Shame on 10:33 - Nov 7 with 1475 views | PlanetHonneywood |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:20 - Nov 7 by essextaxiboy |
FIFA staff are in shared apartment accommodation 3 or 4 in each |
If FIFA are having to adopt flatshare arrangements for some of its staff, I am prepared to wager that the plum five-star hotels will have long since been booked off to house Infantino, his ilk, and the legions of representatives from the FAs on their four yearly junket.
I was surprised to read that Doha will be using boats to house fans. And after thinking about it, I wonder if given the large amount of empty real estate pre-WC that was evident, Qatar maybe put the brakes on to prevent an even bigger glut post-WC. | |
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| World Cup of Shame on 10:35 - Nov 7 with 1471 views | robith |
| World Cup of Shame on 09:28 - Nov 5 by BrianMcCarthy |
Not surprisingly, this is a great conversation.
I'm nowhere near making up my mind on this one. I suspect I'll still be revising my views throughout the tournament. On the one hand, I recognise the ills in Qatar. On the other, I can't help but recognise that no-one boycotted any of the previous World Cups, many of which were held in Countries with then-appalling records on human rights, violence, warmongering, racism and/or sexism.
If I'm going to boycott the World Cup in Qatar, I want to first convince myself that it's because their 'ills' are much worse than those of any previous host, not just because 'they' don't look like 'us'. |
I am going to boycott it Brian, precisely because I failed to do so previously
I felt quite strongly more of a noise should've been made about Russia, which was illegally occupying Crimea, imprisoning journalists and committing an organised campaign of violence against LGBTQI+ people especially.
But then it was 30 degrees every day, England did well, didn't we have fun? Every who went praised how well organised it was. Memes for days, top bants.
And now look where we are.
So I don't turn my back on this world cup in isolation because it is uniquely awful - although there is a far greater connection of the awfulness to the event itself - but it's because it's a tipping point, the culmination of everything that's come before | | | |
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