By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
I seem to remember, that when the HS2 was in the planning stage, the Chinese said, in as many words…… you give us the contract and we will build it cheaper and quicker (3 years I think they said).
Obviously now, the Chinese lost……. Or did they? I mean Christ on a bike, look at how mich a bat tunnel on the line is costing….. £109m for 1 freeking bat tunnel.
Ow before any of you say….. yes but it’s the Chinese init, and look at Temu for shoddy shit, I can assure you that I’ve travelled on the Chinese rail system thoroughly, and found it efficient and fast. Almost to the second.
Rather like a new ground for rangers, we shat ourselves in our feet. We could have had it for cheaper, with a higher speed etc.
I also had the fortune of travelling the Shanghai Maglev! My word, 120km before it cleared the platform end, all the way up rotors big double figures in speed, having to slow down at the half way point of the journey.
It seems we just cannot do anything quickly, efficiently, that won’t need changing or moving or adding to bloody bat tunnels to keep the bierdy wierdies at bay.
If you don't mind a bit of Marxist politics this has a pretty good breakdown of all the things that have gone wrong.
TL;DR:
China is run by engineers, the West is run by lawyers and social scientists.
If you don't mind a bit of Marxist politics this has a pretty good breakdown of all the things that have gone wrong.
TL;DR:
China is run by engineers, the West is run by lawyers and social scientists.
Like most things its a balance. I don't want to live in a dictatorship but I also want big engineering projects to get done.
We saw with the Brentford fan(s) use the ecological argument to stop QPR building on Warren Farm, doubt he was a 'beardy weirdy' as you put it (no doubt a weirdo), just someone using all the tools they have to stop something they don't want getting done. Which just pushes costs up as we have seen, QPR gave up but the government didn't.
Like most things its a balance. I don't want to live in a dictatorship but I also want big engineering projects to get done.
We saw with the Brentford fan(s) use the ecological argument to stop QPR building on Warren Farm, doubt he was a 'beardy weirdy' as you put it (no doubt a weirdo), just someone using all the tools they have to stop something they don't want getting done. Which just pushes costs up as we have seen, QPR gave up but the government didn't.
What would you change to stop that?
I'm not suggesting the views in the video are my politics.
And to be fair the video does touch on many of the bad things about China such as no unions, no regard for personal property rights or environmental concerns, etc.
But at the same time it does make good points about the way governments in the West have outsourced all their expertise to the private sector and don't realise when they are being taken for a ride over costs. This is something you see in all major government projects whether it's schools, hospitals, IT, roads, etc.
Our planning laws probably are too restrictive but I don't have any easy answer for what the alternative should be.
Also the ease with which politicians abuse their powers also needs to be curbed. A big factor in driving up costs of HS2 was Conservative politicians bending over backwards to appease Tory voter concerns about noise and environmental impacts in areas like Oxfordshire and Warwickshire by building unnecessary tunnels or rerouting tracks because the locals were worried about losing a few grand off the value of their properties.
I'm not suggesting the views in the video are my politics.
And to be fair the video does touch on many of the bad things about China such as no unions, no regard for personal property rights or environmental concerns, etc.
But at the same time it does make good points about the way governments in the West have outsourced all their expertise to the private sector and don't realise when they are being taken for a ride over costs. This is something you see in all major government projects whether it's schools, hospitals, IT, roads, etc.
Our planning laws probably are too restrictive but I don't have any easy answer for what the alternative should be.
Also the ease with which politicians abuse their powers also needs to be curbed. A big factor in driving up costs of HS2 was Conservative politicians bending over backwards to appease Tory voter concerns about noise and environmental impacts in areas like Oxfordshire and Warwickshire by building unnecessary tunnels or rerouting tracks because the locals were worried about losing a few grand off the value of their properties.
All good points!
I think the track swerves around a few golf courses but has gone straight through some ancient woodlands, which kind of suggests the planners are just following the path of least resistance.
The tories never really wanted this project, aside from a couple of grandstanding moments from Cameron to appease the North.
Planning laws are not the problem. The problem is that we do not have big construction under the government's hands and instead it's in the inefficient clutches of big business.
And they will milk it for all its worth; while it's delayed (which increases the profit for these companies), they will constantly run down more and more of the public sector until it's all in their hands, and they can charge whatever they want for it.
There are many examples of this, but just look at how many decades it took the private sector to build those Vauxhall towers. They land-banked that for ages and ages.
So, much for the so-called efficiency of the private sector, and they have all the money and lawyers and politicians in their back pocket, and still they cry they can't make any money.
Whilst praising China and their ability to build stuff quickly its worth noting its very much done at the expense of ordinary people like us and safety laws nowhere near our own, as evidenced by them killing 80 plus miners today.
I'm sure HS2 would be a lot quicker and cheaper if we had laws that allowed hundreds of workers to be killed willy nilly, like the original railways perhaps.
Whilst praising China and their ability to build stuff quickly its worth noting its very much done at the expense of ordinary people like us and safety laws nowhere near our own, as evidenced by them killing 80 plus miners today.
I'm sure HS2 would be a lot quicker and cheaper if we had laws that allowed hundreds of workers to be killed willy nilly, like the original railways perhaps.
You're spot on.
I don't think anyone wants us to go back to Victorian labour laws
Whilst praising China and their ability to build stuff quickly its worth noting its very much done at the expense of ordinary people like us and safety laws nowhere near our own, as evidenced by them killing 80 plus miners today.
I'm sure HS2 would be a lot quicker and cheaper if we had laws that allowed hundreds of workers to be killed willy nilly, like the original railways perhaps.
HS2 is largely about additional capacity. I'm no expert myself but a friend who is told me...
"Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1."
HS2 is largely about additional capacity. I'm no expert myself but a friend who is told me...
Maybe. But the biggest capacity constraint is Birmingham - Manchester, isn't it?
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky
One of the us largest house builders wimpey have said they won’t be building flats etc for the foreseeable future as there is no demand for them ,
That may be due to the changes in leasehold regulation that may be in the works which will give more protection to leaseholders and remove the egregious money making opportunities the lease owners currently have. Things might change when that all settles down?
As I bored people with on another thread, a lot of people's view of China is seriously out of date and skewed by the scale of it.
We can take the efficiency and market regulation but forgo the human rights abuses and antidemocracy if we want.
Those in the UK against the first two will try and convince you that the second two are mutually exclusive.
[Post edited 26 May 17:51]
Agreed.
But even more so, let's say we just ignore China and claim the moral high ground (which is what the right, for years, claimed the loony left were doing); then they will, just as they have been doing, slowly take over the world.
Better we take the economic approach and keep our democracy, put ownership of major industries in the hands of the state (like Steel), and have the possibility of removing any politicians who abuse that.
Every privatisation that has been claimed as a success is a long-term failure, and sometimes a short-term one. Water, Energy, trains the list goes on, and yes, they are all completely worse than being managed by the state. And this has been proven again and again.
As I bored people with on another thread, a lot of people's view of China is seriously out of date and skewed by the scale of it.
We can take the efficiency and market regulation but forgo the human rights abuses and antidemocracy if we want.
Those in the UK against the first two will try and convince you that the second two are mutually exclusive.
[Post edited 26 May 17:51]
Any country which farms dogs to eat , isnt right in the head sorry . shame as they get way more things right than wrong but come on , have a look at some of videos about what happens to dogs in china , thats not a normal way to live , oh and anyone whos joining the ev world insurers are saying NO to a lot of people buying h cheap evs coming into the uk these days.
Any country which farms dogs to eat , isnt right in the head sorry . shame as they get way more things right than wrong but come on , have a look at some of videos about what happens to dogs in china , thats not a normal way to live , oh and anyone whos joining the ev world insurers are saying NO to a lot of people buying h cheap evs coming into the uk these days.
Many in India would feel similarly about eating beef.
I should add that I don't eat the meat of any animal.
Any country which farms dogs to eat , isnt right in the head sorry . shame as they get way more things right than wrong but come on , have a look at some of videos about what happens to dogs in china , thats not a normal way to live , oh and anyone whos joining the ev world insurers are saying NO to a lot of people buying h cheap evs coming into the uk these days.
'Any country which farms dogs to eat , isn't right in the head sorry'
Don't disagree but is a country that rips foxes to pieces any better? Vast majority of Chinese don't do it anyway. It's slowly being phased out like South Korea.
But even more so, let's say we just ignore China and claim the moral high ground (which is what the right, for years, claimed the loony left were doing); then they will, just as they have been doing, slowly take over the world.
Better we take the economic approach and keep our democracy, put ownership of major industries in the hands of the state (like Steel), and have the possibility of removing any politicians who abuse that.
Every privatisation that has been claimed as a success is a long-term failure, and sometimes a short-term one. Water, Energy, trains the list goes on, and yes, they are all completely worse than being managed by the state. And this has been proven again and again.
I've been saying this for years to anyone who will listen. You cannot privatise public services and expect anything good.
A private company is 100% motivated to make profit. As demonstrated there is only minimal investment into infrastructure, resulting in our Victorian transport system in London, or our crumbling sewers, water and gas pipes.
It's a no brainer for these companies, they can milk it dry, strip the assets and then in the end the government will just come on in and run it again at our expense.
I can't think of one thing either that got better, now Reform are talking about an American model of Healthcare, fcuk that!!
They'll slip into power, just like Trump did off some rhetoric that foreigners eat pets and then we'll all find out!
I keep logging in expecting an update in Cargiant site and just get more and more politics. I thought we were supposed to avoid it . Can’t you just have a politics thread and keep Posts relevant to the title .
I keep logging in expecting an update in Cargiant site and just get more and more politics. I thought we were supposed to avoid it . Can’t you just have a politics thread and keep Posts relevant to the title .
Possibly sometimes up to 50% of threads on here, go off topic.
Usually when there is a disagreement over very random.events.
Anyhow what time is Eastenders on tonight and has Britney Spears accepted my friends request on Facebook !!!
Back on topic then. So this site has gone out to tender, is that right? When does that close and then how soon after that would we know who the winner (?) is?
No single private developer has bought the Cargiant site yet, as the land is currently valued at an estimated £100m following the business's recent wind-down. However, the broader bidding landscape around Old Oak Common has just drastically changed.The Old Oak and Park Royal Development Corporation (OPDC) has launched a massive, official procurement process to find a private sector development and investment partner.
1. The £10bn Master Procurement Launch
The OPDC has agreed to heads of terms with the UK Government, Network Rail, and the Department for Transport to pool 70 acres of public land directly adjacent to the upcoming HS2 station hub into one unified public sector-led site.The Opportunity: Developers are being invited to bid on a £10 billion project.The Scope: The partner will build a massive canal-side tech, research, and business district featuring 8,000 new homes and 200,000 square metres of commercial space.Timeline: The two-stage procurement process began this month, with a preferred development partner expected to be formally selected by Spring 2027
.2. Private Entities Linked to the Cargiant Land
While the public sector bidding process handles the surrounding acres, the specific 50-acre Cargiant plot is tied to a few key entities:London & Regional Properties: Previously, Cargiant’s owner (billionaire Geoff Warren) partnered with London & Regional—the UK’s largest privately-held property company—to map out a master plan named "Old Oak Park". Because Cargiant restructured its land into separate property rental and trading entities (Every Space Limited and NW London Commercial) right before closing, they are likely either exploring joint ventures with London & Regional or evaluating how to integrate their acreage into the OPDC's wider £10bn masterplan market push.
Historical Rivals (Queens Park Rangers): Over a decade ago, QPR football club heavily pursued the Cargiant site for a new 40,000-seater stadium. While this bid was famously blocked by the landowners, the recent closure of the car supermarket has reignited speculation among local real estate forums about whether sports or entertainment consortia will attempt to re-enter the fold
.3. Why Bidding is Highly CompetitiveMajor institutional developers and real estate investment trusts (REITs) are targeting this zone because the newly combined public-private land sits atop the only UK interchange where High Speed 2 (HS2), the Elizabeth Line, the Great Western Main Line, and the Heathrow Express will intersect. It is widely considered London's largest brownfield regeneration asset.
No single private developer has bought the Cargiant site yet, as the land is currently valued at an estimated £100m following the business's recent wind-down. However, the broader bidding landscape around Old Oak Common has just drastically changed.The Old Oak and Park Royal Development Corporation (OPDC) has launched a massive, official procurement process to find a private sector development and investment partner.
1. The £10bn Master Procurement Launch
The OPDC has agreed to heads of terms with the UK Government, Network Rail, and the Department for Transport to pool 70 acres of public land directly adjacent to the upcoming HS2 station hub into one unified public sector-led site.The Opportunity: Developers are being invited to bid on a £10 billion project.The Scope: The partner will build a massive canal-side tech, research, and business district featuring 8,000 new homes and 200,000 square metres of commercial space.Timeline: The two-stage procurement process began this month, with a preferred development partner expected to be formally selected by Spring 2027
.2. Private Entities Linked to the Cargiant Land
While the public sector bidding process handles the surrounding acres, the specific 50-acre Cargiant plot is tied to a few key entities:London & Regional Properties: Previously, Cargiant’s owner (billionaire Geoff Warren) partnered with London & Regional—the UK’s largest privately-held property company—to map out a master plan named "Old Oak Park". Because Cargiant restructured its land into separate property rental and trading entities (Every Space Limited and NW London Commercial) right before closing, they are likely either exploring joint ventures with London & Regional or evaluating how to integrate their acreage into the OPDC's wider £10bn masterplan market push.
Historical Rivals (Queens Park Rangers): Over a decade ago, QPR football club heavily pursued the Cargiant site for a new 40,000-seater stadium. While this bid was famously blocked by the landowners, the recent closure of the car supermarket has reignited speculation among local real estate forums about whether sports or entertainment consortia will attempt to re-enter the fold
.3. Why Bidding is Highly CompetitiveMajor institutional developers and real estate investment trusts (REITs) are targeting this zone because the newly combined public-private land sits atop the only UK interchange where High Speed 2 (HS2), the Elizabeth Line, the Great Western Main Line, and the Heathrow Express will intersect. It is widely considered London's largest brownfield regeneration asset.
I would be suprised if our owners are not involved in the mix on this, it would be a once in a generation chance to be involved in the shaping and re-development of the area and possibly the spark to get a new stadium.
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.