| England Thread 🏴 19:29 - Oct 17 with 258822 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
About time we had one I think? |  | | |  |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:16 - Jul 16 with 2332 views | daveB |
| England Thread 🏴 on 09:57 - Jul 16 by BostonR |
Can you imagine Klopp in the dugout last night? He’d of pushed England on the front foot after scoring to finish the game off. That’s an elite manager. |
I don't even think Southgate would have gone that defensive.
In that Italy final many on here want to slate him for his changes were Saka for Tripper, Henderson for Rice and Grealish for Mount all designed to try and get us back up the pitch. We did the opposite last night. Absolutely criminal from Tuchel. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:20 - Jul 16 with 2291 views | ed_83 |
Of all the heartbreaking England losses I've seen, this was perhaps the most infuriating and avoidable. First half was very cagey but we'd played well, got in front, it was all there for us.
Serious questions to be asked of Tuchel with the subs, but it felt like a collective headloss to me: really have to question whether there's something psychologically ingrained into the team at this point, given how often exactly the same thing happens (we go 1-0 up against a good team, sit way too deep, concede, get knocked out). We've definitely progressed from the pre-Southgate era, in fairness, but we have to find a way to get over this new barrier.
With hindsight something's been off this entire tournament though. Squad was horribly lopsided, we've not named the same back 4 from game to game, and not rotated the midfield despite Rice clearly being injured / exhausted (why bring Mainoo if you're never going to play him?)
Feels like we've survived on guts and moments of brilliance from either Kane or Bellingham. If they both have off nights and we retreat into our shells, we're a very easy team to pick off.
I'm giving England one more home Euros. If we do the same thing again then I'm giving up on them. Actively masochistic at this point: I feel like Sideshow Bob, and every tournament's a rake. [Post edited 16 Jul 10:21]
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| England Thread 🏴 on 10:20 - Jul 16 with 2285 views | ted_hendrix |
Gordon was exhausted last night, he was In possession running down the left wing and I noticed no English player to his right and ultimately three Argentine players took the ball of him, turned It over call It what you want but we were slowly falling apart.
Declan Rice was substituted on about 80 minutes I'm presuming because of his earlier Illness, when he went off I thought Oh no.
We have some absolutely fantastic players In England, I'm so gutted because we were there last night, so so close. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 10:30 - Jul 16 with 2166 views | TheChef |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:20 - Jul 16 by ted_hendrix |
Gordon was exhausted last night, he was In possession running down the left wing and I noticed no English player to his right and ultimately three Argentine players took the ball of him, turned It over call It what you want but we were slowly falling apart.
Declan Rice was substituted on about 80 minutes I'm presuming because of his earlier Illness, when he went off I thought Oh no.
We have some absolutely fantastic players In England, I'm so gutted because we were there last night, so so close. |
Exactly so take him off if you have to, but replace him with Rashford.
Noted that Argentina brought on their three subs exactly the same time as Konsa came on. I'm not sure what Anthony Barry was doing last night but clearly he seemed to agree with what Tuchel wanted to do. Very much in Phil Neal "yes boss" mode...
Also there was one point not long after we scored where we had Rogers, Kane and Bellingham on the edge of the area with an opportunity to work a decent attempt on goal but it came to nothing. And that was the last chance we seemed to have in the game. |  |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 10:33 - Jul 16 with 2147 views | NorthantsHoop |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:10 - Jul 16 by PlanetHonneywood |
We're several pages into it on here and I'm sure, we've got many more discussions and exchanges among pals going on as well, that frankly, you don't need an expert to point out what we were all saying during the game itself. |
Oooh sorry! |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:35 - Jul 16 with 2111 views | DannytheR |
Thought the player we could have really done with last night was Wharton - one paced but can keep hold of the ball and pick a pass, which was a massive part of our problem.
Hindsight 20/20 and all that, but 5 across the middle instead of the back could have meant someone picking up Fernandez for the first goal, and at least occasionally getting in Messi's way.
As it was, says a lot that we can end up with a team entirely made up of centre backs and *still* have Trevor Chalobah sitting on the bench. [Post edited 16 Jul 10:37]
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| England Thread 🏴 on 10:44 - Jul 16 with 2039 views | Superhoops2808 |
I have given up reading all the posts as I suspect many are posting exactly how I feel this morning.
After Gordons goal, which we well deserved and were the better team, we at that point should have brought on some fresh legs in Midfield, and in addition taken off James. So not gone wholesale defence, but refresh what was there. I would have put Spence (Who again had a blinder regardless of the result) on the right and O'Reilly in his position.
Then Mainoo and Eze or Rashford (who has been excellent as Sub) to freshen up the midfield. Against Mexico, when we had 10 men, we still left Gordon up front so we had a target man for an out ball - Instead, it became like pinball, the ball went out of box and just straight back - rinse and repeat - players becoming worn down with no positive just constant wave after wave of attack. I mean FFS we saw just 12% possession after Gordons goal. Tuchel lied when he said we kept to the 442, because when Konsa (i think) came on he clearly signalled to switch to 5-4-1
Anyway, my post is probably just rinsing and repeating but my thoughts post match after a sleep and early morning visit to the supermarket and cafe is this:
I for one never thought we would get past the quarters at best so well done to the whole squad for proving me wrong
Tuchel should be given at the very least a shot at the Euro's in 28 and unless a shocking performance in that tournament a chance to make things right in 2030. Beyond that, without silverware we should be looking for another manager. A world cup semi final in his first tournament is pretty good and better than most achieve in the whole career - As we often say about QPR, its not always about changing things up.
Finally, there are some players whose career with England has come to an end and we need to make changes and Tuchel must not be afraid to do that for the greater good. A lot of that begins in defence where in my opinion as soon as he is home is the immediate need to start
So, Well done England, but as is always said, leave no regrets on the pitch if defeated and I think this morning when they wake up there will be lots of ifs and buts and maybes. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:48 - Jul 16 with 1976 views | StreathamRanger |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:10 - Jul 16 by TK1 |
"There’s nothing on the bench to wrestle back possession in midfield..."
This is true. But who picked Mainoo and Henderson as the only back-up midfielders, neither of whom are remotely capable of the task? Who left the one English midfielder who keeps the ball like a metronome, Adam Wharton, who always passes forwards and quickly, who would've given the opposition a question to answer when Rice went off? As would have the legs of Scott.
Thomas Tuchel is a mercenary on £5m a year whose big idea is for England to play like a plucky, physical newly-promoted Championship team to the PL. Fast, strong, straight lines, nick a goal, shut up shop, throw on two centrebacks to hang off the crossbar (and miss the man in the middle). Ended the game with Dan Burn up top and Konsa failing to beat the first man on the wing. Laughable L2 sht.
If the three subs coming on when England go 1-0 are Cole Palmer to keep the ball and stress the two Argentine CBs who are on yellows ffs, Alexander Arnold and Wharton to hit him and keep the ball, England win that. England probably win it if Watkins and Saka came on to run at them.
But TT doesn't trust or like the technical English players. He likes specimens. The one technical player he grudgingly employs is Bellingham - and it's very grudging - he does so because of his physicality. He looks at the English players like mid-level PL players but this is a great generation of English players and I cannot believe how they set up, all the technical ability of European, PL winners he left at home for the like of Burn, Chalobah, Henderson.
In 2017, England won the U17 World Cup and the U20 World Cup. They won the U21 Euros twice on the bounce in 23 and 25. The FA spent over a decade building institutional competition winning know-how and culture, chiefly through Lee Carsley, but also Paul Simpson and Steve Cooper, with crown jewel youth players Foden and Palmer at the forefront of winning those titles.
And then the new FA chief exec, Mark Bullingham, a former marketing and commercial guy with zero football know-how, said - 'yeah, that was good, winning all those titles, but what we need is a proven elite club manager from Europe to win a world cup' (like they hadn't already tried that with Capello and Ericksen), and chucked all that carefully grown culture, along with many of the country's best young players, in the bin for an abrasive German sex-dungeon guy who's fallen out with every club he's worked at. And will now fall out with England.
Tuchel will hang in there, £5m is £5m. But Bullingham has to go. I genuinely believe England would have got as far with Lee Carsley, but the football would have been better. |
Post of the tournament. | | | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 10:48 - Jul 16 with 1974 views | Juzzie |
In the cold light of day I just think that on the whole we're a 1/4 final / semi-final team at best. Yes, we've got to two Euro finals but on average I think we just don't have what it takes to get us over the line. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:52 - Jul 16 with 1939 views | themodfather |
argys did what they do cheat, dive, foul, provoke, we went 1-0 up and then had to come out and play, ok , i am sure many felt like me, we will catch them on a break? we never did , back 5 , sitting back, drawing them on, wave after wave it was coming and came , then shell shocked blew it, threw it away . gutted.
then for me to add insult to misery , i am outside my home and a fella walked by after game, with a argy/messi shirt on , i gave him some and told him are you sure? he was not from there of course but i restrained myself as i am not so angry any bloody damn it all , more. a new calmer me!
TUCHEL brought in ONE JOB , win. before world cup he got a new contract based on getting out of a easy group and losing most friendlies v better teams . he failed in this semi. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:02 - Jul 16 with 1851 views | wombat |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:48 - Jul 16 by Juzzie |
In the cold light of day I just think that on the whole we're a 1/4 final / semi-final team at best. Yes, we've got to two Euro finals but on average I think we just don't have what it takes to get us over the line. |
dont think its totally down to the players though , if ur on the pitch and see two defenders come on u have no midfield either your going here we go again lets sit back one nil up last night go for it , gordon off rashford on like for like for at least ten or so mins chances would have come form sure on the counter but no we wen full on paul hart and same as agsint italy it cost us the game |  |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 11:02 - Jul 16 with 1848 views | Ned_Kennedys |
| England Thread 🏴 on 23:31 - Jul 15 by Northernr |
Southgate would have got absolutely annihilated for what just happened there. |
Well Tuchel’s being absolutely annihilated as well and rightly so. |  | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:06 - Jul 16 with 1808 views | Juzzie |
We're all talking about England's tactics, and rightly so, but did this play into Argentina's playbook? Niggle at/peck at the opponents, don't waste energy then go hell for leather in the last 25 mins? | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:06 - Jul 16 with 1812 views | daveB |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:10 - Jul 16 by TK1 |
"There’s nothing on the bench to wrestle back possession in midfield..."
This is true. But who picked Mainoo and Henderson as the only back-up midfielders, neither of whom are remotely capable of the task? Who left the one English midfielder who keeps the ball like a metronome, Adam Wharton, who always passes forwards and quickly, who would've given the opposition a question to answer when Rice went off? As would have the legs of Scott.
Thomas Tuchel is a mercenary on £5m a year whose big idea is for England to play like a plucky, physical newly-promoted Championship team to the PL. Fast, strong, straight lines, nick a goal, shut up shop, throw on two centrebacks to hang off the crossbar (and miss the man in the middle). Ended the game with Dan Burn up top and Konsa failing to beat the first man on the wing. Laughable L2 sht.
If the three subs coming on when England go 1-0 are Cole Palmer to keep the ball and stress the two Argentine CBs who are on yellows ffs, Alexander Arnold and Wharton to hit him and keep the ball, England win that. England probably win it if Watkins and Saka came on to run at them.
But TT doesn't trust or like the technical English players. He likes specimens. The one technical player he grudgingly employs is Bellingham - and it's very grudging - he does so because of his physicality. He looks at the English players like mid-level PL players but this is a great generation of English players and I cannot believe how they set up, all the technical ability of European, PL winners he left at home for the like of Burn, Chalobah, Henderson.
In 2017, England won the U17 World Cup and the U20 World Cup. They won the U21 Euros twice on the bounce in 23 and 25. The FA spent over a decade building institutional competition winning know-how and culture, chiefly through Lee Carsley, but also Paul Simpson and Steve Cooper, with crown jewel youth players Foden and Palmer at the forefront of winning those titles.
And then the new FA chief exec, Mark Bullingham, a former marketing and commercial guy with zero football know-how, said - 'yeah, that was good, winning all those titles, but what we need is a proven elite club manager from Europe to win a world cup' (like they hadn't already tried that with Capello and Ericksen), and chucked all that carefully grown culture, along with many of the country's best young players, in the bin for an abrasive German sex-dungeon guy who's fallen out with every club he's worked at. And will now fall out with England.
Tuchel will hang in there, £5m is £5m. But Bullingham has to go. I genuinely believe England would have got as far with Lee Carsley, but the football would have been better. |
I still don't mind that he left those players out but what I'll never get over is he had good players sat with him on the bench who could have changed that game. Saka, Watkins, Eze, Mainoo, Rashford and he didn't use them.
England reached where they should do and beat who they should, some great individual performances along the way, Mexico was great but last night was the one we always lose and the whole point of appointing Tuchel was to change that narrative. It's harsh as he's done some good things but he's failed. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:09 - Jul 16 with 1794 views | TheChef |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:06 - Jul 16 by daveB |
I still don't mind that he left those players out but what I'll never get over is he had good players sat with him on the bench who could have changed that game. Saka, Watkins, Eze, Mainoo, Rashford and he didn't use them.
England reached where they should do and beat who they should, some great individual performances along the way, Mexico was great but last night was the one we always lose and the whole point of appointing Tuchel was to change that narrative. It's harsh as he's done some good things but he's failed. |
I hadn't even realised we still had two subs left - my mind was somewhat blown when he brought on Rashford and Toney in the 93rd minute!! | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 11:12 - Jul 16 with 1769 views | TK1 |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:48 - Jul 16 by Juzzie |
In the cold light of day I just think that on the whole we're a 1/4 final / semi-final team at best. Yes, we've got to two Euro finals but on average I think we just don't have what it takes to get us over the line. |
Nah, this England generation of players is filled with elite talent and know-how. CL, PL, top European leagues, World Club Championship winners galore.
Just think of the trophy cabinets of those that didn't even get picked like Phil Foden, 26, Cole Palmer, 24, TAA, 27, even Adam Wharton has a couple of trophies at 22. Then you look at the medals in the squad Tuchel picked. The idea that this generation needed Tuchel to teach them how to win: Foden's won much more than Tuchel. They're winners.
But we do not have a football administration to match. Lions led and consistently let down by donkeys currently. Renewing Tuchel's contract *before* the tournament was a catastrophic error, similar to the same they made with Capello. Chinless, talentless corporate gimps, the like of which many here have probably had to answer to at work. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:24 - Jul 16 with 1705 views | johnhoop |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:12 - Jul 16 by TK1 |
Nah, this England generation of players is filled with elite talent and know-how. CL, PL, top European leagues, World Club Championship winners galore.
Just think of the trophy cabinets of those that didn't even get picked like Phil Foden, 26, Cole Palmer, 24, TAA, 27, even Adam Wharton has a couple of trophies at 22. Then you look at the medals in the squad Tuchel picked. The idea that this generation needed Tuchel to teach them how to win: Foden's won much more than Tuchel. They're winners.
But we do not have a football administration to match. Lions led and consistently let down by donkeys currently. Renewing Tuchel's contract *before* the tournament was a catastrophic error, similar to the same they made with Capello. Chinless, talentless corporate gimps, the like of which many here have probably had to answer to at work. |
The trouble with that is that this elite English talent you refer to has players in virtually every position apart from striker. Once Kane has gone (and it won’t be long now ) there are no English strikers of anywhere near international level to replace him, bearing in mind that the only current alternative, Ollie Watkins, is thirty himself.
After that there’s absolutely nothing, tumbleweeds, zilch, nada. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:27 - Jul 16 with 1678 views | TK1 |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:06 - Jul 16 by daveB |
I still don't mind that he left those players out but what I'll never get over is he had good players sat with him on the bench who could have changed that game. Saka, Watkins, Eze, Mainoo, Rashford and he didn't use them.
England reached where they should do and beat who they should, some great individual performances along the way, Mexico was great but last night was the one we always lose and the whole point of appointing Tuchel was to change that narrative. It's harsh as he's done some good things but he's failed. |
You may not mind it now but in years to come there will be documentaries and endless podcasts about the crazy German coach of England who chose not to bring Cole Palmer, Trent AA, Adam Wharton and Phil Foden in their mid 20s to a world cup, but instead brought Chalobah, Burn, Toney and 400-year-old Jordan Henderson, most of whom mostly sat on the bench because they offered nothing different. It's career vandalism. I wonder what Bellingham and Saka think of it.
Mainoo I think is too unreliable in/out of possession. But agree it's insane not to have deployed Saka, Watkins, even Maduke and Eze to run at them and behind their very slow and cautioned defenders. Sackable offence. England had a great run, but they had a relatively easy run and they should've been beaten in the final by Spain. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:32 - Jul 16 with 1640 views | TK1 |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:24 - Jul 16 by johnhoop |
The trouble with that is that this elite English talent you refer to has players in virtually every position apart from striker. Once Kane has gone (and it won’t be long now ) there are no English strikers of anywhere near international level to replace him, bearing in mind that the only current alternative, Ollie Watkins, is thirty himself.
After that there’s absolutely nothing, tumbleweeds, zilch, nada. |
But he's here now. And he'll be here for the next Euros. We're talking about 2026, not 2030. Maybe we'll have mastered the false 9 by then, there are candidates for that.Kane and Halaand have made the 9 fashionable again, but they weren't as fashionable a decade ago. There are enough ingredients in English football for success. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:40 - Jul 16 with 1571 views | DejR_vu |
| England Thread 🏴 on 10:10 - Jul 16 by TK1 |
"There’s nothing on the bench to wrestle back possession in midfield..."
This is true. But who picked Mainoo and Henderson as the only back-up midfielders, neither of whom are remotely capable of the task? Who left the one English midfielder who keeps the ball like a metronome, Adam Wharton, who always passes forwards and quickly, who would've given the opposition a question to answer when Rice went off? As would have the legs of Scott.
Thomas Tuchel is a mercenary on £5m a year whose big idea is for England to play like a plucky, physical newly-promoted Championship team to the PL. Fast, strong, straight lines, nick a goal, shut up shop, throw on two centrebacks to hang off the crossbar (and miss the man in the middle). Ended the game with Dan Burn up top and Konsa failing to beat the first man on the wing. Laughable L2 sht.
If the three subs coming on when England go 1-0 are Cole Palmer to keep the ball and stress the two Argentine CBs who are on yellows ffs, Alexander Arnold and Wharton to hit him and keep the ball, England win that. England probably win it if Watkins and Saka came on to run at them.
But TT doesn't trust or like the technical English players. He likes specimens. The one technical player he grudgingly employs is Bellingham - and it's very grudging - he does so because of his physicality. He looks at the English players like mid-level PL players but this is a great generation of English players and I cannot believe how they set up, all the technical ability of European, PL winners he left at home for the like of Burn, Chalobah, Henderson.
In 2017, England won the U17 World Cup and the U20 World Cup. They won the U21 Euros twice on the bounce in 23 and 25. The FA spent over a decade building institutional competition winning know-how and culture, chiefly through Lee Carsley, but also Paul Simpson and Steve Cooper, with crown jewel youth players Foden and Palmer at the forefront of winning those titles.
And then the new FA chief exec, Mark Bullingham, a former marketing and commercial guy with zero football know-how, said - 'yeah, that was good, winning all those titles, but what we need is a proven elite club manager from Europe to win a world cup' (like they hadn't already tried that with Capello and Ericksen), and chucked all that carefully grown culture, along with many of the country's best young players, in the bin for an abrasive German sex-dungeon guy who's fallen out with every club he's worked at. And will now fall out with England.
Tuchel will hang in there, £5m is £5m. But Bullingham has to go. I genuinely believe England would have got as far with Lee Carsley, but the football would have been better. |
I agree 100% on the squad selection, but that's a different debate.
We got ourselves ahead and then the players that did it imploded. There's no way he's told them to retreat like that. There's no point swapping Gordon like-for-like because we weren't getting the ball out. Rashford would have had the same problem. There was no one on the bench capable of wrestling the midfield back, the players most capable of doing that were already on the pitch. He gave them to minute 72 before making one change, then another 10 and we were seriously rocking by then. An equaliser looked inevitable. We were under the cosh, wave after wave, so if we're doing that he may as well try and close the gaps, get more bodies back and try to smother them. I'm sure he didn't tell them all to stay in the 18 yard box and give Messi 20 yards of space. It didn't work, but he had to try something. I'm no Tuchel fan but I'm not sure what else he could have realistically done. This looks more like a mentality issue to me. These players just crumble against the best teams. | |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 11:45 - Jul 16 with 1554 views | ozexile |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:27 - Jul 16 by TK1 |
You may not mind it now but in years to come there will be documentaries and endless podcasts about the crazy German coach of England who chose not to bring Cole Palmer, Trent AA, Adam Wharton and Phil Foden in their mid 20s to a world cup, but instead brought Chalobah, Burn, Toney and 400-year-old Jordan Henderson, most of whom mostly sat on the bench because they offered nothing different. It's career vandalism. I wonder what Bellingham and Saka think of it.
Mainoo I think is too unreliable in/out of possession. But agree it's insane not to have deployed Saka, Watkins, even Maduke and Eze to run at them and behind their very slow and cautioned defenders. Sackable offence. England had a great run, but they had a relatively easy run and they should've been beaten in the final by Spain. |
You're right. The Henderson selection blows my mind. Toney!!!!! Been playing in Saudi which is a pub league. I'm just astonished that all that money he's on and all the yes men around him couldn't see that the danger wasn't at the back where you need 6 centre backs. The danger was 5 metres outside the box with Messi.
If we'd have done like for like subs, Mainoo for Rice, Gordon for Rashford etc I think we could be a lot happier this morning. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:47 - Jul 16 with 1539 views | DannytheR |
Also, for all that Southgate seems to have now become a byword for failure - we hadn't got past the QFs of a tournament for 22 years before 2018, and then only missed winning the next one on penalties.
I'm not a particular fan of his, but he took much more inexperienced teams beyond what Tuchel has managed *and* walked away when he realised he couldn't take us further. As has already been said, thanks to the FA we - and the players - are now very much stuck with this guy. [Post edited 16 Jul 15:01]
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| England Thread 🏴 on 12:01 - Jul 16 with 1457 views | kensalriser |
One thing I'll add that's nothing to with the England manager or players:
I would rather be on the losing side than have the shame of the players representing my country make a crass gesture picking at the scab of a 40+ year old failed military adventure by a desperate brutish dictator that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of young conscripts. |  |
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| England Thread 🏴 on 12:19 - Jul 16 with 1393 views | Juzzie |
I'm not defending Tuchal but before the "He's got to go" brigade come out in full force, let's remember that 47 teams in the tournament will not win the World Cup. Are all those managers up for the sack?
I get that many teams will get nowhere near it so really shouldn't be considered for the chop but all bar one of the expected teams (France, Brazil, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, Spain, Argentina, England, Portugal) will fail.
Then you have the next lot that expect to be knocking on the door (Japan, Mexico, Croatia, Morocco, Egypt).
Then you have others who did under delivered (Turkey, Scotland, South Korea, Uruguay) who I do expect the Managers to be sweating.
And then you have Italy who never even qualified! ..... along with the likes of Nigeria, Denmark, Wales, Poland etc. | | | |
| England Thread 🏴 on 12:19 - Jul 16 with 1391 views | Superhoops2808 |
| England Thread 🏴 on 11:45 - Jul 16 by ozexile |
You're right. The Henderson selection blows my mind. Toney!!!!! Been playing in Saudi which is a pub league. I'm just astonished that all that money he's on and all the yes men around him couldn't see that the danger wasn't at the back where you need 6 centre backs. The danger was 5 metres outside the box with Messi.
If we'd have done like for like subs, Mainoo for Rice, Gordon for Rashford etc I think we could be a lot happier this morning. |
That last paragraph is bang on - Take James off as well and we would have at least been pushing forward more than we were in that last 30 mins | | | |
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