| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad 20:27 - Aug 2 with 33328 views | numptydumpty |
Cocky Sod !!!
No wonder he is not being selected !!!
He doesn't look injured to me - Questions... [Post edited 2 Aug 20:30]
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 22:41 - Aug 9 with 3783 views | DannytheR |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 22:23 - Aug 9 by KensalT |
I can't help wondering if Kolli would be faring better if Les Ferdinand and Chris Ramsey were still here.
Their support and guidance is something else that Chair and Eze benefited from. [Post edited 9 Aug 22:23]
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Well, I'd be interested to know how you'd try to sell the club now as one where youth players have a realistic pathway to the first team. Morgan doesn't seem to be kicking on, and Kolli appears on his way out.
Would also be interesting to know what Paul Furlong made of it all, but then, he doesn't work for QPR anymore either. [Post edited 9 Aug 22:42]
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 22:47 - Aug 9 with 3717 views | numptydumpty |
He is injured a lot.
Hasnt been invited on two pre season tours due to fitness and conditioning issues.
Never seems to last 90 minutes. Be interested to know how many times in his career has he been on the full ninety.
Has the ability to score some outstanding goals.
Appears to not contribute greatly on occasions to team tactics as againat individual glory. And completely ineffective away from home.
Jekyll and Hyde character apparently.
Potentially a wasted talent.
Needs minutes but won't get what he feels he deserves here !!
My prediction is he is on his way out somewhere.Loan to permanent deal, I feel, but he would not downgrade so our level or higher, which could be the ultimate stumbling block for any deal.
Basically my advice.to Rayan is tell your family to stop interfering, get a new agent and get a new management team, work hard in training, keep the peace here and if by some miracle, he stays here, take every opportunity you can here, to display your undoubted talents and do everything to get onside with the powers that be here. Everybody loves a trier. If not Alfie takes your thunder and puts himself in the spotlight, where really it should be yourself. [Post edited 9 Aug 22:49]
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 22:54 - Aug 9 with 3670 views | nix |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 20:50 - Aug 9 by ViewFrom165 |
If we are going to surmise that people within the hierarchy at the Club want Kolli out for mainly non footballing reasons, I have an issue with whoever that is having such a fragile ego that they aren't willing to do the right thing for the benefit of the Club on many levels.
1. Repeating myself but Kolli is the best player the Club has produced all the way through it's youth ranks that has played at Championship level for us since Richard Langley in 1998 (honourable mention to Ray Jones as well). He's the only recent example we can give of that pathway to all the aspiring young players and their parents when we're trying to sell the Youth Development programme and stop them going to other rival academies. He is our only genuine poster boy and therefore he's great for business on that front.
2. Yes his consistency can be questioned, but the same can be said for all of our current crop of Striker options. Last season I watched Kone, Burrell and Bennie be completely ineffective multiple times over their full 90 minute and substitute appearances, failing to do the absolute basics required of a striker, drift in and out of games and have long spells without a goal contribution, yet they are given more grace than Kolli for the same or much less return when averaged out. Everyone should be held to the same account.
3. He is clearly very good at Football. His Goals per minutes ratio is currently up there with some of the best in the clubs history, he has ball striking/finishing qualities that nobody else at the Club possesses. Can score goals out of nothing, from range or in the 6 yard box, he can win flick ons and link play just as well as anyone else. Lloyd respectfully couldn't lace his Boots and Obikwu is still untested at this level so everything should be getting done to get him in contention to be one of our main Striker options.
4. Being completely Homegrown he's the only viable option for a pure profit sale, we aren't going to get anywhere near his potential value by not playing him, or by tarnishing his reputation outwardly to potential buyers either.
There's been too much outside noise from his Family that I'm sure has probably bothered Kolli just as much as us, his Dad isn't his agent though so I doubt his reps have caused Nourry or whoever any more issues than other agents wanting the best deals for their clients.
The worst case scenario is letting him leave without giving him every opportunity to fulfil his undoubted potential, that he so clearly wants to do at the Club he loves. As you can probably tell I feel quite passionately about Kolli and this situation but ultimately want all sides to win here and feel the Club could potentially make a huge mistake if they mishandle this. [Post edited 9 Aug 20:55]
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Sorry but if you’re going to surmise something that’s absolutely fine but it’s not ‘we’is it as you don’t talk for all of us. There are lots of assumptions in your post, as there are in everyone else’s but you’re talking as if we all accept your basic premises and therefore the conclusions that flow from them. But if you read the thread there are all kinds of opinions that don’t wholly align with your beliefs.
I’m not disputing there may be fragile egos at the club but I think the Kolli situation is more complex than just that. You can love the guy’s potential without thinking he’s the finished article and goals per minute is not the only metric that counts.
And your underlying assumption is that the manager doesn’t pick the team which i don’t believe. I think Stephan works with the Board but I also think he’s his own man.
This Forum would be tedious in the extreme if we all agreed all the time although sometimes it gets a bit too exciting! |  | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 23:20 - Aug 9 with 3614 views | ViewFrom165 |
In response to both rottcodd and wombat re Loans, do you know for a fact that enquiries were made for Kolli to be rejected by him? I've never seen any official confirmation from QPR or other clubs that he/we/they have had approaches turned down.
Also, what is wrong with him wanting to stay and fight for his place if he believes he's good enough to impact the first team anyway? That to me isn't an act of defiance, just ambition and self belief. Up until right now it's complete hearsay and baseless assumption that he's ever thrown his toys out the pram when not picked, in fact I'm glad he would be pissed off as every Pro should be if they aren't playing.
Marti Cifuentes spoke highly about him in the season before last around the time when he scored his first goals. The only official quotes we have had from Stephan were about Kolli's increase in intensity in training being rewarded with more starts. Stephan did not say he has a lack of ability or use the word attitude once, that was inserted by West London Sport in to the body of their article. Not training with enough intensity does not directly correlate to having a bad attitude.
Some critical thinking is needed around this topic as there's so much unsourced misinformation out there now that people are letting inform opinion and run with as fact and it's becoming really damaging to one of our young players.
Edit: wombat I intentionally said that has actually played for us at Championship level to cover the fact that Raheem Sterling didn't. [Post edited 9 Aug 23:30]
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 00:10 - Aug 10 with 3523 views | ViewFrom165 |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 22:54 - Aug 9 by nix |
Sorry but if you’re going to surmise something that’s absolutely fine but it’s not ‘we’is it as you don’t talk for all of us. There are lots of assumptions in your post, as there are in everyone else’s but you’re talking as if we all accept your basic premises and therefore the conclusions that flow from them. But if you read the thread there are all kinds of opinions that don’t wholly align with your beliefs.
I’m not disputing there may be fragile egos at the club but I think the Kolli situation is more complex than just that. You can love the guy’s potential without thinking he’s the finished article and goals per minute is not the only metric that counts.
And your underlying assumption is that the manager doesn’t pick the team which i don’t believe. I think Stephan works with the Board but I also think he’s his own man.
This Forum would be tedious in the extreme if we all agreed all the time although sometimes it gets a bit too exciting! |
nix I can't speak for how you've chosen to comprehend my post but I know what standpoint it was written from. It's entirely formed of my own thoughts and opinions on the topic as is everything I post unless backed up with some facts, and I have no expectation for anyone to accept my basic premises and the conclusions that flow from them, as you have assumed.
I didn't once say Kolli is the finished article, I think he can still improve alot, but he has a great foundation to build on. I used the Goals per minutes metric to support that his output is on par if not better than the other Strikers at the Club, but he is not afforded the same grace as they are when they also turn in below average performances.
It would be fair to say I have assumed how Kolli feels about his Family involvement and the agent dealings with the Club, but at no point have I alluded to Stephan not picking the team and have never believed that throughout his tenure, besides Plymouth away in the League Cup. A contradictory assumption from you!
Thanks for your reply nonetheless. [Post edited 10 Aug 0:35]
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 00:17 - Aug 10 with 3505 views | BlackCrowe |
I know nothing about his situation but there seems to be something afoot.
He's decent champ player but not sure he's as good as others think he is. After being 10+ years in this division, being one of our own is a good thing, but really i just want QPR to lift their skirt to the playoffs....and i'm not sure he's it. |  |
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 06:43 - Aug 10 with 3202 views | nix |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 00:10 - Aug 10 by ViewFrom165 |
nix I can't speak for how you've chosen to comprehend my post but I know what standpoint it was written from. It's entirely formed of my own thoughts and opinions on the topic as is everything I post unless backed up with some facts, and I have no expectation for anyone to accept my basic premises and the conclusions that flow from them, as you have assumed.
I didn't once say Kolli is the finished article, I think he can still improve alot, but he has a great foundation to build on. I used the Goals per minutes metric to support that his output is on par if not better than the other Strikers at the Club, but he is not afforded the same grace as they are when they also turn in below average performances.
It would be fair to say I have assumed how Kolli feels about his Family involvement and the agent dealings with the Club, but at no point have I alluded to Stephan not picking the team and have never believed that throughout his tenure, besides Plymouth away in the League Cup. A contradictory assumption from you!
Thanks for your reply nonetheless. [Post edited 10 Aug 0:35]
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Fair enough. But you started by saying, if we’re going to surmise which to me implies that that’s something we broadly agree on, which I don’t think we do. It’s the we I objected to. There’s a lot of that on this board these days, when it’s often just rumour and speculation and someone’s opinion which we’re all entitled to but isn’t something that should just take for granted as being true or implied as being a supposition we all agree on. But if by we you really meant I then that’s fine and I’ll withdraw that point.
The reason I thought your assumption was that Stephan doesn’t pick the team is that you started by saying it was down to fragile egos which on here is code for Nourry, surely you must be aware of that by now? But Stephan isn’t picking him, not Nourry, and he actually gave the reason for it in one of his official interviews, which is very unusual for him talking directly in a negative way about a particular player when he said Rayan needs to do more in training to get picked on Saturdays. And Martí didn’t consistently start him either. And if he was getting picked, even for preseason, I don’t think there would be any speculation about him leaving, so the two things are connected.
As for the metric of goals scored I certainly don’t dispute that but I am maybe unusual here in thinking that that’s not the only way of assessing even a forward these days. Particularly one in a team like Stephan’s where he likes to defend from the front. Kone and Burrell may not always be effective in front of goal but they work tirelessly off the ball and I think that’s the main issue for Kolli: with the evidence of my own eyes I don’t think Kolli does - and I think that’s the reason he doesn’t get picked along with not working hard enough in training.I also think he’s more selfish in front of goal, with both Burrell and Kone far more likely to pass when their teammate is in a better position than shoot and waste a chance, But that’s my opinion I agree and yours is different which is fine.
Thanks for clarifying. | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 08:26 - Aug 10 with 3035 views | DejR_vu |
If this standoff is true, someone at the club needs to step in to mediate. You would think Lee Hoos is mature enough and experienced enough to do that. That’s not taking sides, it’s pragmatism. It would clearly be in the best interests of a young player and the club, both in the short and medium terms, to get this resolved sensibly. If there’s no one at the club that can do that it reflects very badly on the individuals concerned. It’s also not going to be very helpful to those people if things don’t go well this season and Kolli is somewhere else doing well. I would imagine the owners would take a pretty dim view. |  |
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 08:58 - Aug 10 with 2941 views | wombat |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 00:10 - Aug 10 by ViewFrom165 |
nix I can't speak for how you've chosen to comprehend my post but I know what standpoint it was written from. It's entirely formed of my own thoughts and opinions on the topic as is everything I post unless backed up with some facts, and I have no expectation for anyone to accept my basic premises and the conclusions that flow from them, as you have assumed.
I didn't once say Kolli is the finished article, I think he can still improve alot, but he has a great foundation to build on. I used the Goals per minutes metric to support that his output is on par if not better than the other Strikers at the Club, but he is not afforded the same grace as they are when they also turn in below average performances.
It would be fair to say I have assumed how Kolli feels about his Family involvement and the agent dealings with the Club, but at no point have I alluded to Stephan not picking the team and have never believed that throughout his tenure, besides Plymouth away in the League Cup. A contradictory assumption from you!
Thanks for your reply nonetheless. [Post edited 10 Aug 0:35]
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if kolli dosnt like the advice hes getting from his agent of indeed family isnt he man enough to say stop it let me decide what happens in my future ? If hes not doing the hard yards in training though thats purely down to rayan im affraid , its rare for a coach to name a player in a press conference to buck his ideas up as well , yes he can put the ball in the net but as others have said the game we play needs a player to do way way more than score goals. rayan dosnt do that work never has , bar one mad 45 mins at sunderland in the last game when rayan was tackling winning the ball you name it. its gettig boring talking about him every season for issues off the pitch more than what hes done on the pitch, now alfie is ahead of him hes now fourth choice up front at his age he should be at least a sqaud regular. and hate to say it the injury in the warm up last week in the dev game isnt a great look for a player esp one in his position. |  |
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:13 - Aug 10 with 2796 views | Myke |
A very interesting debate and some very strong opinions presented here. For me, the issues surrounding Kolli (and Obikwu for that matter) stem from the club’s inability to communicate exactly what is going on. You would have thought by now that the club would have learned that a lack of information merely leads to a vacuume that is filled by opinion, idle speculation, accidental misinformation, deliberate disinformation, conspiracy theories etc etc. The days when the supporters would calmly and patiently accept silence from a club are long gone. The world of social media has changed that forever and every void must be filled. The club simply needs to state what is going on, what the short/medium -term future prospects of either player are in terms of first team opportunities and put all the gossip and speculation to bed for once and for all. | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:28 - Aug 10 with 2730 views | nick_hammersmith |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 22:23 - Aug 9 by KensalT |
I can't help wondering if Kolli would be faring better if Les Ferdinand and Chris Ramsey were still here.
Their support and guidance is something else that Chair and Eze benefited from. [Post edited 9 Aug 22:23]
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That pair were desperate to have a success story from the development side, which is one of the reasons we had 25 year olds knocking about with 1 or 2 senior apps to their name, like Nico Hammelinan. There has to be a balance here between forcing something that might never happen.
I'll say it again, I think there is a player in Rayan, I'd love him to succeed at QPR.
I think someone mentioned it above though, there are thousands of scouts in Football, how come not one other club from the 92 wants to take a punt on Rayan, only Saudi and a lower tier French club?
There must be some large question over him that is preventing this.
I don't think its the current coach, as Rayan has had a few managers before this one. I'm not ITK like some on this board, so I'll have to wait and see what happens, but its very frustrating to see Alfie Lloyd play on Sat, when Rayan would have been a better option.
From the outside looking in, whats the difference? DIdn't Alfie go on loan last year to try and develop more? |  | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:32 - Aug 10 with 2718 views | QPROslo |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 06:43 - Aug 10 by nix |
Fair enough. But you started by saying, if we’re going to surmise which to me implies that that’s something we broadly agree on, which I don’t think we do. It’s the we I objected to. There’s a lot of that on this board these days, when it’s often just rumour and speculation and someone’s opinion which we’re all entitled to but isn’t something that should just take for granted as being true or implied as being a supposition we all agree on. But if by we you really meant I then that’s fine and I’ll withdraw that point.
The reason I thought your assumption was that Stephan doesn’t pick the team is that you started by saying it was down to fragile egos which on here is code for Nourry, surely you must be aware of that by now? But Stephan isn’t picking him, not Nourry, and he actually gave the reason for it in one of his official interviews, which is very unusual for him talking directly in a negative way about a particular player when he said Rayan needs to do more in training to get picked on Saturdays. And Martí didn’t consistently start him either. And if he was getting picked, even for preseason, I don’t think there would be any speculation about him leaving, so the two things are connected.
As for the metric of goals scored I certainly don’t dispute that but I am maybe unusual here in thinking that that’s not the only way of assessing even a forward these days. Particularly one in a team like Stephan’s where he likes to defend from the front. Kone and Burrell may not always be effective in front of goal but they work tirelessly off the ball and I think that’s the main issue for Kolli: with the evidence of my own eyes I don’t think Kolli does - and I think that’s the reason he doesn’t get picked along with not working hard enough in training.I also think he’s more selfish in front of goal, with both Burrell and Kone far more likely to pass when their teammate is in a better position than shoot and waste a chance, But that’s my opinion I agree and yours is different which is fine.
Thanks for clarifying. |
Bang on about the overuse of "we". | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:52 - Aug 10 with 2653 views | Stainrod |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 06:43 - Aug 10 by nix |
Fair enough. But you started by saying, if we’re going to surmise which to me implies that that’s something we broadly agree on, which I don’t think we do. It’s the we I objected to. There’s a lot of that on this board these days, when it’s often just rumour and speculation and someone’s opinion which we’re all entitled to but isn’t something that should just take for granted as being true or implied as being a supposition we all agree on. But if by we you really meant I then that’s fine and I’ll withdraw that point.
The reason I thought your assumption was that Stephan doesn’t pick the team is that you started by saying it was down to fragile egos which on here is code for Nourry, surely you must be aware of that by now? But Stephan isn’t picking him, not Nourry, and he actually gave the reason for it in one of his official interviews, which is very unusual for him talking directly in a negative way about a particular player when he said Rayan needs to do more in training to get picked on Saturdays. And Martí didn’t consistently start him either. And if he was getting picked, even for preseason, I don’t think there would be any speculation about him leaving, so the two things are connected.
As for the metric of goals scored I certainly don’t dispute that but I am maybe unusual here in thinking that that’s not the only way of assessing even a forward these days. Particularly one in a team like Stephan’s where he likes to defend from the front. Kone and Burrell may not always be effective in front of goal but they work tirelessly off the ball and I think that’s the main issue for Kolli: with the evidence of my own eyes I don’t think Kolli does - and I think that’s the reason he doesn’t get picked along with not working hard enough in training.I also think he’s more selfish in front of goal, with both Burrell and Kone far more likely to pass when their teammate is in a better position than shoot and waste a chance, But that’s my opinion I agree and yours is different which is fine.
Thanks for clarifying. |
Re strikers "working tirelessly off the ball" I would agree with you re Kone. And before his injury I would also have agreed with that for Burrell. But there wasn't much evidence of Burrell working "tirelessly" on or off the ball on Saturday. There were balls he didn't even go for, in particular a fairly simple header he didn't even jump for. If Kolli had put in a performance like that (and tbf he did a few times at the back end of last season) am not sure he would be shown much latitude. Hopefully Burrell will get back to his old self and with the Kolli situation I think there is failure on both sides, but if we are going to hold players to high standards we should surely do so consistently. [Post edited 10 Aug 11:00]
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:58 - Aug 10 with 2616 views | Stainrod |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:13 - Aug 10 by Myke |
A very interesting debate and some very strong opinions presented here. For me, the issues surrounding Kolli (and Obikwu for that matter) stem from the club’s inability to communicate exactly what is going on. You would have thought by now that the club would have learned that a lack of information merely leads to a vacuume that is filled by opinion, idle speculation, accidental misinformation, deliberate disinformation, conspiracy theories etc etc. The days when the supporters would calmly and patiently accept silence from a club are long gone. The world of social media has changed that forever and every void must be filled. The club simply needs to state what is going on, what the short/medium -term future prospects of either player are in terms of first team opportunities and put all the gossip and speculation to bed for once and for all. |
No club - or company for that matter - is going to come out and say "we are in dispute with x employee" or "they turned up completely unfit for pre-season training". That stays in the dressing room. In the social media age there is this notion that we as fans should be given a running commentary on every detail. It would probably cause problems under employment law and detailing a player's failures in public is hardly likely to improve their attitude/ performance, or increase their value in the transfer market if the intention is to sell them.
I did though like dejr vu's suggestion of mediation. He suggests Hoos. I would suggest Sinton, who is hopefully respected by players and management alike. Clearly no one wins from the current stand off and we should try something different IMHO. | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:13 - Aug 10 with 2550 views | wombat |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:58 - Aug 10 by Stainrod |
No club - or company for that matter - is going to come out and say "we are in dispute with x employee" or "they turned up completely unfit for pre-season training". That stays in the dressing room. In the social media age there is this notion that we as fans should be given a running commentary on every detail. It would probably cause problems under employment law and detailing a player's failures in public is hardly likely to improve their attitude/ performance, or increase their value in the transfer market if the intention is to sell them.
I did though like dejr vu's suggestion of mediation. He suggests Hoos. I would suggest Sinton, who is hopefully respected by players and management alike. Clearly no one wins from the current stand off and we should try something different IMHO. |
we have tried more angles with him than the average pound in a pint glass stripper on a friday night . somebody said earlier that even the players have given up on him , if thats true do you think he will lsiten to andy sinton for what ever reason ?
be great if he did . end of the day if a player dosnt want it enough then its time to say thanks and. good luck . and its a shame as he can certainly hit the ball , | |
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:19 - Aug 10 with 2532 views | KensalT |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 10:28 - Aug 10 by nick_hammersmith |
That pair were desperate to have a success story from the development side, which is one of the reasons we had 25 year olds knocking about with 1 or 2 senior apps to their name, like Nico Hammelinan. There has to be a balance here between forcing something that might never happen.
I'll say it again, I think there is a player in Rayan, I'd love him to succeed at QPR.
I think someone mentioned it above though, there are thousands of scouts in Football, how come not one other club from the 92 wants to take a punt on Rayan, only Saudi and a lower tier French club?
There must be some large question over him that is preventing this.
I don't think its the current coach, as Rayan has had a few managers before this one. I'm not ITK like some on this board, so I'll have to wait and see what happens, but its very frustrating to see Alfie Lloyd play on Sat, when Rayan would have been a better option.
From the outside looking in, whats the difference? DIdn't Alfie go on loan last year to try and develop more? |
From the outside looking in I would say that Les Ferdinand and Chris Ramsay wanted their players to succeed and were on the players side.
I don't think anyone would accuse Nourry or Williams of being empathetic.
Under the current regime it appears to be shape up or ship out.
Some would say that's a good thing. Some might disagree.
It's probably true that LF and CR mollycoddled some players and that didn't help anyone.
At the same time Eze had been bombed out by a string of clubs before, and was probably in the last chance saloon when he came here. And Ilias Chair has spoken of the support he got from Chris Ramsey and has said he probably wouldn't have had the career he has had without that support.
So yes, LF and CR were too indulgent with some players. But we might already have forgotten about Chair and Eze without the support they got here at a crucial stage in their development.
I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. I'm just saying Kolli might respond better to an arm around the shoulder rather than some my way or the highway routine. |  | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:24 - Aug 10 with 2518 views | nick_hammersmith |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:13 - Aug 10 by wombat |
we have tried more angles with him than the average pound in a pint glass stripper on a friday night . somebody said earlier that even the players have given up on him , if thats true do you think he will lsiten to andy sinton for what ever reason ?
be great if he did . end of the day if a player dosnt want it enough then its time to say thanks and. good luck . and its a shame as he can certainly hit the ball , |
In that video where Andy Sinton is chatting with Kolli before they give him a peg in the first team Rayan looks a bit vacant.
He's young and probably not media trained, but he seemed a bit underwhelmed by the whole deal.
I'm currently listening to the Nile Ranger interview and maybe there are some parallels here.
--I doubt Nile would have taken much on board from Andy Sinton either... | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:37 - Aug 10 with 2452 views | wombat |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:19 - Aug 10 by KensalT |
From the outside looking in I would say that Les Ferdinand and Chris Ramsay wanted their players to succeed and were on the players side.
I don't think anyone would accuse Nourry or Williams of being empathetic.
Under the current regime it appears to be shape up or ship out.
Some would say that's a good thing. Some might disagree.
It's probably true that LF and CR mollycoddled some players and that didn't help anyone.
At the same time Eze had been bombed out by a string of clubs before, and was probably in the last chance saloon when he came here. And Ilias Chair has spoken of the support he got from Chris Ramsey and has said he probably wouldn't have had the career he has had without that support.
So yes, LF and CR were too indulgent with some players. But we might already have forgotten about Chair and Eze without the support they got here at a crucial stage in their development.
I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. I'm just saying Kolli might respond better to an arm around the shoulder rather than some my way or the highway routine. |
Good point would eze and chair have made it here under the present regime ?
id say a big NO thats the diff when u dont have football people involved at the higher levels of the club , kolli has been here long enough to see both sides and its still not happening to the level he should be at his age and with that many appearences under his belt. so far his only appearences have beeb sorry but with the left overs in two dev games cant imagine he or his advisors are that happy with him being treated in that way. | |
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:49 - Aug 10 with 2411 views | Stainrod |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:13 - Aug 10 by wombat |
we have tried more angles with him than the average pound in a pint glass stripper on a friday night . somebody said earlier that even the players have given up on him , if thats true do you think he will lsiten to andy sinton for what ever reason ?
be great if he did . end of the day if a player dosnt want it enough then its time to say thanks and. good luck . and its a shame as he can certainly hit the ball , |
The phrase "if that's true" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there... | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 12:49 - Aug 10 with 2249 views | wombat |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:49 - Aug 10 by Stainrod |
The phrase "if that's true" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there... |
Certainly is same as the shouting match with a certain somebody at the training ground which may or may not have happened | |
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 13:30 - Aug 10 with 2114 views | ViewFrom165 |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 06:43 - Aug 10 by nix |
Fair enough. But you started by saying, if we’re going to surmise which to me implies that that’s something we broadly agree on, which I don’t think we do. It’s the we I objected to. There’s a lot of that on this board these days, when it’s often just rumour and speculation and someone’s opinion which we’re all entitled to but isn’t something that should just take for granted as being true or implied as being a supposition we all agree on. But if by we you really meant I then that’s fine and I’ll withdraw that point.
The reason I thought your assumption was that Stephan doesn’t pick the team is that you started by saying it was down to fragile egos which on here is code for Nourry, surely you must be aware of that by now? But Stephan isn’t picking him, not Nourry, and he actually gave the reason for it in one of his official interviews, which is very unusual for him talking directly in a negative way about a particular player when he said Rayan needs to do more in training to get picked on Saturdays. And Martí didn’t consistently start him either. And if he was getting picked, even for preseason, I don’t think there would be any speculation about him leaving, so the two things are connected.
As for the metric of goals scored I certainly don’t dispute that but I am maybe unusual here in thinking that that’s not the only way of assessing even a forward these days. Particularly one in a team like Stephan’s where he likes to defend from the front. Kone and Burrell may not always be effective in front of goal but they work tirelessly off the ball and I think that’s the main issue for Kolli: with the evidence of my own eyes I don’t think Kolli does - and I think that’s the reason he doesn’t get picked along with not working hard enough in training.I also think he’s more selfish in front of goal, with both Burrell and Kone far more likely to pass when their teammate is in a better position than shoot and waste a chance, But that’s my opinion I agree and yours is different which is fine.
Thanks for clarifying. |
Fine on the misunderstanding of we, it was used more exclusively for myself and the consensus of people that think Kolli is being forced out than to speak collectively for everyone that posts on here.
The fragile egos part applies to people that supposedly just want him gone from the club due to off the field reasons, not generally blocking him from playing as such. As someone mentioned the lack of information when he does disappear from the fold lets the conspiracies manifest, but that's happened under both Marti and Stephan where he's dropped out the team, reappeared for the Dev Squad, then had a run back in the first team and all seems well again. Letting us know if he is just simply injured could save alot of discourse.
The two occasions I can find that Stephan has outwardly spoken about Kolli are in response to questions from journalists in his pressers, he hasn't singled him out for praise nor criticism, just sighted that his run in the team last season was down to an increase in intensity and output in training that he was being rewarded for. More recently he was asked if he'd still be at the Club after the Transfer Window and he said he doesn't know. Marti also praised him and at the time of his scoring streak under him, but said they needed to manage his minutes due to injuries which leans in to your point about him not consistently starting.
I am absolutely with you on the goals per minutes metric not being the only way of assessing a forwards performance. The off the ball stuff is just as crucial, as are competing and winning ground and aerial duels, linking up play and combining with teammates. Last season we were more of a side that stayed in a mid block off the ball rather than pressing relentlessly, and I think Kone, Burrell and Kolli all done what was asked of them in keeping that shape to pretty much the same standard. I don't agree that Kone and Burrell work tirelessly off the ball, maybe it appears that way cos they are often chasing their own poor control or bad passes, and we saw it more regularly as they had more minutes. My main point in comparing the 3 of them is that they should be held to the same account and for some reason the things highlighted about downfalls of Kolli's are overlooked with the other 2, and the same with the strengths that he has over them. Like you said it's just opinions and how we individually interpret the game. | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad (n/t) on 14:15 - Aug 10 with 2008 views | nick_hammersmith |
[Post edited 10 Aug 14:20]
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| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 14:22 - Aug 10 with 1976 views | nick_hammersmith |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 11:19 - Aug 10 by KensalT |
From the outside looking in I would say that Les Ferdinand and Chris Ramsay wanted their players to succeed and were on the players side.
I don't think anyone would accuse Nourry or Williams of being empathetic.
Under the current regime it appears to be shape up or ship out.
Some would say that's a good thing. Some might disagree.
It's probably true that LF and CR mollycoddled some players and that didn't help anyone.
At the same time Eze had been bombed out by a string of clubs before, and was probably in the last chance saloon when he came here. And Ilias Chair has spoken of the support he got from Chris Ramsey and has said he probably wouldn't have had the career he has had without that support.
So yes, LF and CR were too indulgent with some players. But we might already have forgotten about Chair and Eze without the support they got here at a crucial stage in their development.
I'm not saying one approach is better than the other. I'm just saying Kolli might respond better to an arm around the shoulder rather than some my way or the highway routine. |
I think keeping players older than 21 kicking around at DS level when they have 0 or little professional apps isn't great for the players themselves.
Eze and Chair were probably at a similar age to Rayan is now when they went to Wycombe, although Rayan probably has more first team mins already?
If they are released young enough, like Eze was then there is still time to build a decent career
The club was/is desperate for homegrown talent to succeed and prove that investment in youth and the attached model.
This is why we played players like Kakay for so long, when he wasn't really at Championship level. | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 09:46 - Aug 11 with 1507 views | nix |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 13:30 - Aug 10 by ViewFrom165 |
Fine on the misunderstanding of we, it was used more exclusively for myself and the consensus of people that think Kolli is being forced out than to speak collectively for everyone that posts on here.
The fragile egos part applies to people that supposedly just want him gone from the club due to off the field reasons, not generally blocking him from playing as such. As someone mentioned the lack of information when he does disappear from the fold lets the conspiracies manifest, but that's happened under both Marti and Stephan where he's dropped out the team, reappeared for the Dev Squad, then had a run back in the first team and all seems well again. Letting us know if he is just simply injured could save alot of discourse.
The two occasions I can find that Stephan has outwardly spoken about Kolli are in response to questions from journalists in his pressers, he hasn't singled him out for praise nor criticism, just sighted that his run in the team last season was down to an increase in intensity and output in training that he was being rewarded for. More recently he was asked if he'd still be at the Club after the Transfer Window and he said he doesn't know. Marti also praised him and at the time of his scoring streak under him, but said they needed to manage his minutes due to injuries which leans in to your point about him not consistently starting.
I am absolutely with you on the goals per minutes metric not being the only way of assessing a forwards performance. The off the ball stuff is just as crucial, as are competing and winning ground and aerial duels, linking up play and combining with teammates. Last season we were more of a side that stayed in a mid block off the ball rather than pressing relentlessly, and I think Kone, Burrell and Kolli all done what was asked of them in keeping that shape to pretty much the same standard. I don't agree that Kone and Burrell work tirelessly off the ball, maybe it appears that way cos they are often chasing their own poor control or bad passes, and we saw it more regularly as they had more minutes. My main point in comparing the 3 of them is that they should be held to the same account and for some reason the things highlighted about downfalls of Kolli's are overlooked with the other 2, and the same with the strengths that he has over them. Like you said it's just opinions and how we individually interpret the game. |
That’s fair enough. As you won’t be surprised I disagree with your conclusions but not with your right to an opinion. And we is often used to mean everyone who agrees with me rather than everyone in general.
With regard to Stephan I don’t think he speaks carelessly and he’s asked questions about lots of players and usually says he won’t speak about individuals which is why it stood out.
You won’t be surprised to note that I completely disagree with you about the relative effectiveness of Kolli, Kone and Burrell off the ball. I honestly believe if Stephan and his team thought that too they’d be starting him, at least when he’s not injured, which isn’t often. But it’s all opinions and perceptions. | | | |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 13:43 - Aug 11 with 1163 views | wombat |
| Rayan Kolli scores for development squad on 09:46 - Aug 11 by nix |
That’s fair enough. As you won’t be surprised I disagree with your conclusions but not with your right to an opinion. And we is often used to mean everyone who agrees with me rather than everyone in general.
With regard to Stephan I don’t think he speaks carelessly and he’s asked questions about lots of players and usually says he won’t speak about individuals which is why it stood out.
You won’t be surprised to note that I completely disagree with you about the relative effectiveness of Kolli, Kone and Burrell off the ball. I honestly believe if Stephan and his team thought that too they’d be starting him, at least when he’s not injured, which isn’t often. But it’s all opinions and perceptions. |
i see he hasnt recovered enough to feature in todays dev game either.
i agree that was a valid point he made and prob didnt see any other way of making it but makie it in public and for a while it seemed to work | |
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