| WRDCFC get away with it again on 20:48 - Sep 20 with 3321 views | LazyFan |
Wycombe lost to Derby at home that season too. So, Derby used their false accounting to get players that could beat Wycombe and cost them at least 1 point.
If they had that 1 point, it would have secured them in the Champ at the expense of Derby who would have had 2 points less. I think therefore they have a real case. |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 21:05 - Sep 20 with 3240 views | SimonD |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 12:16 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
The only one I wasn't sure about was that football crediutor's penalty, because they removed that from the charge sheet last week suggesting it had been settled. But the rest is about right. 12 points for admin and then multiples of 9-12 points for each of the busted set of accounts they file. |
I would think that the potential football creditors penalty would refer to how they exit administration. If they don't pay their creditors 25p in the £1 then they will be hit with another 15 point deduction.
Assuming that they have breached the upper spending limit in the three-year period ending in 2016/17 they will be deducted points according to the agreed tariff. For what it is worth Mel Morris seemed to think they will be docked 4 points which would indicate an overall loss of between £41m and £43m for the three-year period.
I would presume that they would then follow the Birmingham precedent and effectively wipe the slate clean and start afresh in year one with a £13m upper threshold. 2017/18 is the season that they sold Pride Park making the thick end of £40m profit. They surely will have not made a loss of greater than £13m that season. From there on nobody outside of the club knows as they've not published their accounts. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 21:26 - Sep 20 with 3157 views | davman |
The football authorities are all about ensuring that their leagues remain competitive. Rather than death by a thousand cuts, demote them two leagues for next season with no additional penalties if they get new owners, impose some sanctions on them so that they do not run away with the league at the first time of asking.
I'd say put them in the National League, but as only one team goes up auto from there, it'd be unfair on the other members of that league.
A tragedy for the fans in so many ways, but as others have said, there are a large number who celebrating Melconomics, who deserve what they got. We lucked out in that our owners clearly have deeper pockets and a conscience to correct their cock ups; we could easily have ended up in a similar mess when the debts started to spiral.
Horrible situation.
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:00 - Sep 20 with 3063 views | daveB |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 20:48 - Sep 20 by LazyFan |
Wycombe lost to Derby at home that season too. So, Derby used their false accounting to get players that could beat Wycombe and cost them at least 1 point.
If they had that 1 point, it would have secured them in the Champ at the expense of Derby who would have had 2 points less. I think therefore they have a real case. |
Sheff Utd did similar when they were relegated and sued West Ham for loss of earnings after they were found guilty. Problem is here they could be killing another club by doing it so will be interesting to see how this pans out
Of course the EFL could have just done their job and deducted points last season to avoid all this |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:33 - Sep 20 with 2953 views | VancouverHoop |
I doubt that will fly. The precedent could cause carnage. For starters every club who lost to Derby and was relegated in the 22nd spot in the past five years could make some sort of claim. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:35 - Sep 20 with 2938 views | LazyFan |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:33 - Sep 20 by VancouverHoop |
I doubt that will fly. The precedent could cause carnage. For starters every club who lost to Derby and was relegated in the 22nd spot in the past five years could make some sort of claim. |
Yes you would be correct and that's what happens with FFP and all this fit and proper tests.
fans should own the clubs at 51%. | |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 23:04 - Sep 20 with 2884 views | stowmarketrange |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:33 - Sep 20 by VancouverHoop |
I doubt that will fly. The precedent could cause carnage. For starters every club who lost to Derby and was relegated in the 22nd spot in the past five years could make some sort of claim. |
Maybe Wycombe should be bringing legal action against the EFL?If They’d done their job properly last season derby would’ve got their just desserts then,and Wycombe would’ve stayed up. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 23:16 - Sep 20 with 2850 views | DavieQPR |
Part of their problem is the EFL refused them a Covid loan because Derby would not discuss a timetable for paying it back. |  | | |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 02:18 - Sep 21 with 2688 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:11 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
As said further up, if Derby hadn't been cooking the books, they would certainly have been deducted points last season, probably the one before, and this season as well. So they would have been relegated instead of Wycombe, and be facing a tough job getting back this season. It does indeed look like they're going to try and dump all the points deductions in one go now, which isn't a course of action that would have been open to them had they accounted properly.
What you do about that, I suspect, is nothing.
A fine surely just wouldn't be paid, you'd become another creditor to the admin. |
Which is exactly why I'd prefer the EFL not to apply the points deduction in one go. Let's face it, -21 points virtually relegates Derby this season so the extra 9 points deduction will make no difference if applied at the same time. If the EFL deduct 21 points this season followed by 9 points next, then Derby will likely spend at least 2 seasons in League 1, mirroring the scenario you describe. If the EFL deduct all 30 points this season, then Derby will have every chance of bouncing back from League 1 next. This effectively means that Derby will have received the same punishment as Sheffield Wednesday despite being guilty of significantly more breaches. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 08:38 - Sep 21 with 2452 views | Hunterhoop |
The obvious and fairness solution is to apply points deductions annually in line with the breaches, year by year. That’s how they would have applied if the EFL could police things promptly and competently.
I’m not actually sure how that would break down, but it’s possible it might not relegate them this year but it would equally likely send them to the wall because no one will take them if they’re facing 5 consecutive years of points deductions and likely relegations.
The most appalling thing about all of this is that Morris has cleared the debts on the company he owns that owns the ground, so that will survive on and he has a big asset to earn off and against which to borrow…Derby’s ground. The club meanwhile have all the outstanding debts, huge costs they’re locked into, further costs to bear to use the ground, points deductions, administration….
He has well and truly stuffed them whilst looking after himself. If I was a Derby fan, I’d be furious. I maybe missing it but I don’t see the fury at Morris I’d expect. It’s not the EFL’s fault, or other teams, or the players; it’s entirely Mel Morris. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 08:45 - Sep 21 with 2423 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 08:38 - Sep 21 by Hunterhoop |
The obvious and fairness solution is to apply points deductions annually in line with the breaches, year by year. That’s how they would have applied if the EFL could police things promptly and competently.
I’m not actually sure how that would break down, but it’s possible it might not relegate them this year but it would equally likely send them to the wall because no one will take them if they’re facing 5 consecutive years of points deductions and likely relegations.
The most appalling thing about all of this is that Morris has cleared the debts on the company he owns that owns the ground, so that will survive on and he has a big asset to earn off and against which to borrow…Derby’s ground. The club meanwhile have all the outstanding debts, huge costs they’re locked into, further costs to bear to use the ground, points deductions, administration….
He has well and truly stuffed them whilst looking after himself. If I was a Derby fan, I’d be furious. I maybe missing it but I don’t see the fury at Morris I’d expect. It’s not the EFL’s fault, or other teams, or the players; it’s entirely Mel Morris. |
There's still this lingering thing that the EFL is pursuing some sort of vendetta against them and "has it in for us".  |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 09:35 - Sep 21 with 2260 views | hertshoops |
As well as the EFL ,bizarrely they also seem to point the finger at Steve Gibson for having the temerity to question the legality of the ground sale
I'm fast running out of sympathy for arrogant delusional Derby fans |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:17 - Sep 21 with 2158 views | terryb |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 08:45 - Sep 21 by Northernr |
There's still this lingering thing that the EFL is pursuing some sort of vendetta against them and "has it in for us". |
The EFL can't have Clive. I continually read on this site that the EFL have it in for us!
Surely they couldn't have two clubs in their sights? | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:38 - Sep 21 with 2094 views | joe90 |
I will amazed if Derby get anything more than 12 points deducted. There are a lot of pie in the sky numbers being stated, but I have absolutely no faith in the EFL. On top of that, they'll probably stay up this season. I don't feel sorry for the fans, we were loving it when we won the play-offs even though it was a dream built on sand. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:19 - Sep 21 with 2013 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:17 - Sep 21 by terryb |
The EFL can't have Clive. I continually read on this site that the EFL have it in for us!
Surely they couldn't have two clubs in their sights? |
Well, precisely, Terry. |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 12:57 - Sep 21 with 1836 views | DavieQPR |
Seems Derby owe Football Creditors £10m, an American Fund £20m secured loan and the taxman £30m. On top of this they were losing £1.4m a week before Gate receipts. They will be lucky to survive in their current form. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:35 - Sep 21 with 1750 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:38 - Sep 21 by joe90 |
I will amazed if Derby get anything more than 12 points deducted. There are a lot of pie in the sky numbers being stated, but I have absolutely no faith in the EFL. On top of that, they'll probably stay up this season. I don't feel sorry for the fans, we were loving it when we won the play-offs even though it was a dream built on sand. |
Whilst I share your scepticism on the actual punishment Derby will receive, our problems began in 2011, long before we won the play-offs. That season saw a recruitment drive that rocketed the wage bill north of £70m pa. With no relegation clauses in place, the club were lumbered with this wage bill when it was relegated back to the championship in 2013. Winning the play-offs in 2014 probably saved us from a similar fate to Derby and, conversely, sealed theirs. In hindsight, that match really was them or us. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:40 - Sep 21 with 1738 views | Antti_Heinola |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:38 - Sep 21 by joe90 |
I will amazed if Derby get anything more than 12 points deducted. There are a lot of pie in the sky numbers being stated, but I have absolutely no faith in the EFL. On top of that, they'll probably stay up this season. I don't feel sorry for the fans, we were loving it when we won the play-offs even though it was a dream built on sand. |
agree with the sentiment, but ultimately, it's less about the EFL than costly legal proceedings isn't it? We all think the EFL should be able to deduct whatever the rules say, but it's not so black and white and they won't want to be dragged through the courts on it. |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:00 - Sep 21 with 1682 views | slmrstid |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:35 - Sep 21 by Benny_the_Ball |
Whilst I share your scepticism on the actual punishment Derby will receive, our problems began in 2011, long before we won the play-offs. That season saw a recruitment drive that rocketed the wage bill north of £70m pa. With no relegation clauses in place, the club were lumbered with this wage bill when it was relegated back to the championship in 2013. Winning the play-offs in 2014 probably saved us from a similar fate to Derby and, conversely, sealed theirs. In hindsight, that match really was them or us. |
2014 definitely saved us, but I'm not sure I'd agree on the sealing Derby's fate part - their spending splurges and subsequent financial chicanery started well after that - 2015/16 time onwards seems to be when it really started to take off. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:47 - Sep 21 with 1597 views | Juzzie |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:00 - Sep 21 by slmrstid |
2014 definitely saved us, but I'm not sure I'd agree on the sealing Derby's fate part - their spending splurges and subsequent financial chicanery started well after that - 2015/16 time onwards seems to be when it really started to take off. |
They got to the final again in 2019 and nerfed that up too. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:50 - Sep 21 with 1583 views | Match82 |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:00 - Sep 21 by slmrstid |
2014 definitely saved us, but I'm not sure I'd agree on the sealing Derby's fate part - their spending splurges and subsequent financial chicanery started well after that - 2015/16 time onwards seems to be when it really started to take off. |
At minimum they had ample chances to change course and doubled down instead so while that may have been a factor I don't think it's fair to say that was what resulted in them being where they are today. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:08 - Sep 21 with 1525 views | joe90 |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:35 - Sep 21 by Benny_the_Ball |
Whilst I share your scepticism on the actual punishment Derby will receive, our problems began in 2011, long before we won the play-offs. That season saw a recruitment drive that rocketed the wage bill north of £70m pa. With no relegation clauses in place, the club were lumbered with this wage bill when it was relegated back to the championship in 2013. Winning the play-offs in 2014 probably saved us from a similar fate to Derby and, conversely, sealed theirs. In hindsight, that match really was them or us. |
I suppose at the time of the Play Off we as fans were aware of the precarious situation, but promotion delayed us taking positive action. It also takes time to off-load players, on top of that factoring managerial changes...
I really feel like 2012-17 were lost years for us. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:08 - Sep 21 with 1522 views | WatfordR |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:40 - Sep 21 by Antti_Heinola |
agree with the sentiment, but ultimately, it's less about the EFL than costly legal proceedings isn't it? We all think the EFL should be able to deduct whatever the rules say, but it's not so black and white and they won't want to be dragged through the courts on it. |
Surely we've already established that the EFL can do whatever they wish, when our appeal process established it was their competition, so their rules apply whether they are legally enforceable or not, and when they then threatened us with expulsion from the Football League if we chose to legally challenge the appeal?
You know, take them to court if you want, but if they are within their rights to exclude your club from league football, where's that going to get you? |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:17 - Sep 21 with 1485 views | WatfordR |
What is unsatisfactory about all this is clubs not knowing where the f@ck they stand before the season starts.
Not just the Derbys and the Readings but the others who are under significant financial pressure and whose spending plans perhaps look a good deal less pressurised if they know that there are two or three other clubs starting with a 9 or 12 point (120 point in Derby's case) disadvantage.
IMO, point deductions should all be finalised within a few weeks of the end of the previous season. If, as we are repeatedly told, it's the EFL's competition and what they say goes, accounts should be filed by end of May and available to the EFL to apply points for the coming season. No accounts, maximum fine applied and non reversible.
Too many clubs and owners playing this game to their advantage and it needs to stop or FFP needs to go away. | | | |
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