| WRDCFC get away with it again on 07:19 - Sep 20 with 3672 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:55 - Sep 19 by SimonD |
Their amorisation method is not allowed under accounting rules. The purpose of amortisation is to reflect the depreciating value of an asset in the accounts, and while their method probably more accurately tracks the value of a player (although without seeing the actual numbers we don't know how far they've pushed this), to satisfy accounting rules they need to demonstrate a reliable model which works in at least a significant majority of cases. The volatility of the transfer market makes this impossible, therefore they must use the standard straight line method.
The accounts they are re-submitting are the 2015/16, 2016/17 and 2017/18 ones. They are overdue submitting their 2018/19 and 2019/20 accounts which is why they are currently under a registration embargo and which, along with the unpaid transfer fees, is the crux of the EFL's sanctions against them which may or may not result in the 9 point deduction. [Post edited 20 Sep 2021 7:11]
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Thanks mate. |  | |  |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 07:45 - Sep 20 with 3626 views | distortR |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 22:55 - Sep 19 by SimonD |
Their amorisation method is not allowed under accounting rules. The purpose of amortisation is to reflect the depreciating value of an asset in the accounts, and while their method probably more accurately tracks the value of a player (although without seeing the actual numbers we don't know how far they've pushed this), to satisfy accounting rules they need to demonstrate a reliable model which works in at least a significant majority of cases. The volatility of the transfer market makes this impossible, therefore they must use the standard straight line method.
The accounts they are re-submitting are the 2015/16, 2016/17 and 2017/18 ones. They are overdue submitting their 2018/19 and 2019/20 accounts which is why they are currently under a registration embargo and which, along with the unpaid transfer fees, is the crux of the EFL's sanctions against them which may or may not result in the 9 point deduction. [Post edited 20 Sep 2021 7:11]
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blimme, this has going on for a bit, hasn't it?
Cheers to Northern and SimonD for explanations/context.
Teams have lost division status, points and players to a Derby team that has been cooking the books for 5 years. Now, I imagine a lot of clubs are moving goalposts to one degree or another, but if ffp is going to stay the EFL needs to prove it can enforce it's rules in a timely and consistent manner. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 08:25 - Sep 20 with 3555 views | Phildo |
Worth mentioning perhaps that last week Morris settled all debts for the company that owns the stadium — that is the only part of Derby that has not been placed into administration. I do not think Derby fans realise just how bad things can get from here for them. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:23 - Sep 20 with 3305 views | loftboy |
One of their fans has just posted this.
I received this only a few moments ago, as I am sure most of you have too. Thought I would post it in here for those fellow Rams that haven’t seen this.
If true this is a truly horrific position we find ourselves in 😥😥
Please note these are not my opinions, just forwarding it on
Sheep Dip Update: (Please note the comments are my opinion based on information that I have been receiving since 2019 and dictate a series of events that have been divulged to me. Despite the accuracies, I have made sum assumptions on the alleged intentions of the actions and these will likely differ from the actual events)
You may have to re-read my old posts about the position Derby was in and I am sure Wayne can bring them back up if you wish to read back?
Generally though, there is no point on going on what has been said as it is all now out and with Mel’s interview today finally admitting that they are in Breach of FFP for all of the years the accounts haven’t been submitted properly, which covers the 3 years accounts 2015 — 2018/ 2018-2019 & 2019-2020. This would indicate 3 separate FFP punishments, but I will touch on that a little later.
My understanding is that over the recent months after the results of the arbitration panel Derby were given a deadline to produce their accounts in the same fashion that is expected of them and other clubs.
Not only did Derby not do this, but they also allegedly resubmitted accounts that were formed on a different form of amortisation, which as like the previous examples — they simply could not explain. The EFL provided a final extension of 7 days for them to supply the acceptable accounts or face a points penalty.
The EFL went back to the arbitration panel and were told that if this was not complied with, they could have the points penalty they originally demanded through the hearing. I am guessing Derby were notified of this around the same time. As a result of this, all of the previous delaying tactics and alleged deliberate moves to push the can down the road (so to speak) were no longer possible and the EFL patience would finally be realised.
I have said for a while Administration was on the cards, however, I have been told that how the debt is structured with the club, it is unlikely administration will have much impact. I have also had the benefit to see higher level financials provided by a party involved in the potential takeover through an NDA and it isn’t pretty.
In respect of the club moving forward this is what I understand as now.
Penalty Points Being Faced:.
- 9 Points for Deliberate financial breaches. (Could now be 12 as administrators will now have to negotiate.
- 3 Points (Suspended from panel) for late payment of wages.
- 12 Points for administration.
- 15 Points for Creditors Penalty not paying 25% of footballing debts.
- 12 Points for breach of FFP for years 2015 — 2018 3 years accounts based on the correct amortisation.
- 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2018 — 2019 Accounts
- 9 Points for persistent breaches for 2019 — 2020 Accounts.
The EFL want to implement the absolute maximum on Derby, not because of a vendetta, but due to the alleged actions of Morris and Pearce whom I was told, pretty much used every trick in the book to avoid/delay/frustrate the EFL throughout this whole saga.
It appeared they continued with this ritual of trying to re-write the rules to suit their overspending in order to avoid the inevitable punishments in expectation that promotion would mean they could have got away with a fine. (QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it) FFP was brought in to stop exactly what they both were doing to Derby.
There are many comments from Derby fans claiming the club can take the EFL to court. This is not possible. The EFL are the jurisdiction on the rules of the football league, the courts have no jurisdiction. The accounts may well have been compliant legally for companies law, but this has no bearing on the rules of the football league. Clubs agree to compliance to the rules, it is in their articles of association.
What Next?
Morris and Derby have pretty much burnt their bridges at Derby and the announcement blaming the EFL for administration didn’t go down too well. Despite the administration I would expect the EFL to make an example of them and I expect the club will see a series of points deducted over the next two seasons (as reported in the Star) to have the maximum effect. IF the club is still here.
Derby are now a club whom don’t own their stadium — MSD whom had the loan charge on it will have taken ownership of the company. There is a charge on the training ground also and the ownership of that will revert to the lenders. It would be my expectation that lenders will want to dispose of ASAP and will not care to whom or for what. This leaves a football club with a barebones staff, no training ground and no stadium of ownership and with guaranteed League 1 football next season with a possibility of League 2 the season after. It is going to need a miracle or a seriously generous benefactor to survive.
My own opinion on Mel Morris — I think he is an abhorrent character, whom dodged the stadium valuation by trying to justify what other clubs are doing. He refuses to take responsibility for the way he ran Derby and continues to this day to mention Forest in order to deflect the goings on at Derby. He says this because he thinks their fans are stupid and it will garner support. M&P have run the club to the point of oblivion and have been constantly telling fans what they think they want to hear, rather than the actual goings on. Derby do have the potential to survive, the club has a healthy income driven by the enthusiastic and loyal fanbase it maybe that it rises through another phoenix club or the administrators work absolute wonders with the current debts. Although upon reading Nixon’s tweet about the administrators, that sounds like that comes from the PR Spin of M&P again…. |  |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 10:49 - Sep 20 with 3218 views | ted_hendrix |
The EFL should be slaughtered for their inactivity during this whole pathetic saga, how many bloody 'meetings/discussions' do these people need?
Nothing is clear cut nowadays I'll admit but this is ridiculous, rules are laid down and It's either A-B or C, either follow the rules or suffer the consequences or get the f uck out of the game.
Lets have yet another meeting whereby some grey suited gonks from the EFL can discuss Derby's punishment for the 15th time.
Get on with your job you useless bastards. |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:23 - Sep 20 with 3129 views | Juzzie |
"QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it"
Got away with it? Do they not know we were presented with the biggest ever fine in global sports.
Not sure about Villa but Bournemouth got fined way less. It's the big disparity of the fines amongst the clubs that is causing the most concern. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:51 - Sep 20 with 3031 views | WatfordR |
"FFP was brought in to stop exactly what they both were doing to Derby."
And how's that worked out for you?
The problem with FFP is that it isn't doing any such thing. Instead it is giving owners excuses to asset strip clubs should they wish to do so. Derby's owners knew they were not going to meet FFP requirements in 17/18, so they took the opportunity to strip the ground away from the club, and post a set of accounts that allowed them to meet FFP requirements.
What has the EFL done to close this loophole and protect other clubs in the intervening time? Precisely nothing.
It's all very well looking to make an example of Derby, but the club is not the problem, unscrupulous owners are. We are told time and again that new owners have to pass the EFL's fit and proper persons test, it should be the easiest thing in the world to make it a legal requirement of ownership that fixed assets such as the ground can not be sold to anyone during their ownership.
We were told in our appeal against the EFL's fine on us that the rules of the competition were set by the EFL, so no matter how ridiculous or unenforceable they appeared in UK Law, the EFL could decide what they wanted to do, including throwing us out of their competitions for not adhering to their rules.
The EFL either need to adopt a zero tolerance approach to safeguard clubs, or just bin FFP. As it stands, it's pointless. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:59 - Sep 20 with 3003 views | daveB |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:23 - Sep 20 by Juzzie |
"QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it"
Got away with it? Do they not know we were presented with the biggest ever fine in global sports.
Not sure about Villa but Bournemouth got fined way less. It's the big disparity of the fines amongst the clubs that is causing the most concern. |
Bournemouths fine was around 7 million under the rules and they agreed to pay 4.5
Our fine under the rules was 80 million due to the losses that year and it was reduced to a 17million fine repaid over 10 years.
I don't think Villa were fined though |  | | |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 12:11 - Sep 20 with 2969 views | dmm |
Forgive me if I'm not reading this correctly, but does the Sheep Dip Update really suggest a potential maximum of 69 points being deducted from Derby this season? |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 12:16 - Sep 20 with 2944 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 12:11 - Sep 20 by dmm |
Forgive me if I'm not reading this correctly, but does the Sheep Dip Update really suggest a potential maximum of 69 points being deducted from Derby this season? |
The only one I wasn't sure about was that football crediutor's penalty, because they removed that from the charge sheet last week suggesting it had been settled. But the rest is about right. 12 points for admin and then multiples of 9-12 points for each of the busted set of accounts they file. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 12:58 - Sep 20 with 2800 views | nix |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:23 - Sep 20 by Juzzie |
"QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it"
Got away with it? Do they not know we were presented with the biggest ever fine in global sports.
Not sure about Villa but Bournemouth got fined way less. It's the big disparity of the fines amongst the clubs that is causing the most concern. |
And Leicester only paid £3.1 million after making a loss of over £20 mIllion. It probably stings more because we went up at Derby's expense that year. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:56 - Sep 20 with 2624 views | terryb |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 11:23 - Sep 20 by Juzzie |
"QPR, Bournemouth, Villa to name a few who have cheated and got away with it"
Got away with it? Do they not know we were presented with the biggest ever fine in global sports.
Not sure about Villa but Bournemouth got fined way less. It's the big disparity of the fines amongst the clubs that is causing the most concern. |
Many posters on this site & other Rangers fans do feel that that we hammered by the EFL.
Most fans of other Championship clubs appear to perceive that we did get away with it due to not receiving a points deduction. That a points deduction was not possible to impose on us is lost on most football supporters, as by the time we were relegated in 2015 the rules had changed & deductions could/would be applied.
Villa may face action from the EFL if they suffer a relegation back to The Championship. That is, if they failed FFP. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:59 - Sep 20 with 2604 views | derbyhoop |
Writing's been on the wall for some time.
This summer they let Marriot, Waghorn and Wisdom go. Probably because they couldn't afford their wages. They've been reduced to bringing in Jagielka (aged 39), re-signing Curtis Davies (36) and Morrison. We know very well that if Ravel had any sense to go with his undoubted football, he wouldn't be a desperate signing for a bankrupt club.
They did sell Bogle and Lowe to Sheffield United a year ago and got decent fees. But there isn't much left of any quality. Buchanan the LB has looked good from what little I've seen. Sibley is promising but hasn't really come on in the last year. Possibly reached his peak. Shinnie is decent. But that's it, IMHO. |  |
| Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one’s lifetime. (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:08 - Sep 20 with 2563 views | Toast_R |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 13:56 - Sep 20 by terryb |
Many posters on this site & other Rangers fans do feel that that we hammered by the EFL.
Most fans of other Championship clubs appear to perceive that we did get away with it due to not receiving a points deduction. That a points deduction was not possible to impose on us is lost on most football supporters, as by the time we were relegated in 2015 the rules had changed & deductions could/would be applied.
Villa may face action from the EFL if they suffer a relegation back to The Championship. That is, if they failed FFP. |
Even more galling that a failure in goal line technology saved them from reality. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:47 - Sep 20 with 2469 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:06 - Sep 19 by Northernr |
Morris gave an interview to Radio Derby today in which he confirmed that the three sets of accounts they've got to refile, but still haven't, despite an August deadline, will breach the FFP regulations leaving them facing a further points deduction on top of the 12+9 they're already getting. Not unrealistic that Derby get docked north of 30 points this season. |
Personally I don't see the value in deducting yet more points in the same season. If the EFL really want to make a statement they'd defer the FFP penalty until next season. That way Derby will go down and stay down for at least 2 seasons. Either that or agree a fine akin to the one QPR received. |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:11 - Sep 20 with 2407 views | Northernr |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 14:47 - Sep 20 by Benny_the_Ball |
Personally I don't see the value in deducting yet more points in the same season. If the EFL really want to make a statement they'd defer the FFP penalty until next season. That way Derby will go down and stay down for at least 2 seasons. Either that or agree a fine akin to the one QPR received. |
As said further up, if Derby hadn't been cooking the books, they would certainly have been deducted points last season, probably the one before, and this season as well. So they would have been relegated instead of Wycombe, and be facing a tough job getting back this season. It does indeed look like they're going to try and dump all the points deductions in one go now, which isn't a course of action that would have been open to them had they accounted properly.
What you do about that, I suspect, is nothing.
A fine surely just wouldn't be paid, you'd become another creditor to the admin. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:19 - Sep 20 with 2360 views | LazyFan |
I would immediately swap Derby's position with Wycombes and continue the matches. This would be fair and I am not sure many clubs would complain. Yep literally bring Wycombe into the Champ and relegate Derby real-time into L1.
But these points deducted over two seasons would put them in non-league, that's if they survive. And unless the players are released for free, they cannot sign for a new club. If they don't get paid I am not sure Derby can complete their games and thus so their season ends. I bet Roony forgoes his £90K per week to keep the team going or I suspect we may see AFC Derby County soon and another big mess.
Didn't that toss-pot who started all this claim that no club has gone bust yet?
Lucky we have such benevolent benefactors, but better we have the German model of 51% fan-owned as we can see how it all turns out eventually! [Post edited 20 Sep 2021 20:41]
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:32 - Sep 20 with 2327 views | sprocket |
Disgusting. Fans deluded but we have our faire share of those doughnuts. Wonder how things would have worked out for them if Zamora had not scored and they went up. Suspect not very differently but still... | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 16:16 - Sep 20 with 2190 views | daveB |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 15:11 - Sep 20 by Northernr |
As said further up, if Derby hadn't been cooking the books, they would certainly have been deducted points last season, probably the one before, and this season as well. So they would have been relegated instead of Wycombe, and be facing a tough job getting back this season. It does indeed look like they're going to try and dump all the points deductions in one go now, which isn't a course of action that would have been open to them had they accounted properly.
What you do about that, I suspect, is nothing.
A fine surely just wouldn't be paid, you'd become another creditor to the admin. |
pretty sure Luton got points deductions 2 years running, am sure the EFL will deduct them points next season as well | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 16:28 - Sep 20 with 2143 views | MrSheen |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 16:16 - Sep 20 by daveB |
pretty sure Luton got points deductions 2 years running, am sure the EFL will deduct them points next season as well |
Bolton too. Climbing back up nicely now.
Was it three in a row for Luton? |  | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 16:40 - Sep 20 with 2103 views | Esox_Lucius |
I believe Swindon Town also suffered in this manner. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| WRDCFC get away with it again on 16:51 - Sep 20 with 2063 views | daveB |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 16:28 - Sep 20 by MrSheen |
Bolton too. Climbing back up nicely now.
Was it three in a row for Luton? |
you might be right, they were basically kicked out of the league | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 19:43 - Sep 20 with 1764 views | SimplyNico |
Indeed. Reading between the lines, it sounds like winding up is a real possibility with MM keeping the ground. | | | |
| WRDCFC get away with it again on 20:32 - Sep 20 with 1625 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Dead right, too.
But they may have left this too late. |  |
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